silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

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GSARAYDAR
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silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby GSARAYDAR » Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:48 pm

Old family heirloom made in 1858 ? Made is Russia (I think from the makers Mark) and came out of Armenia, thru Syria about 1897-1898. One of the few things my great grandmother brought with her...Mark looks like viktor vasilyevich savinsky but dated 1858. Did not find the AA makers mark in this website either. Any information on this bowl would be appreciated. we do not know what the inscription says either, nor the language. Thank you, Glenn Saraydar(ian). Image. Image.

AG2012
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby AG2012 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 2:02 am

Hi,
``AA`` (no pellet,dot between initials) could be А.Афанасьев (Александр).According to PL book he worked 1859-1884.
Example of his mark at later date.
Regards
Image

Aguest
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby Aguest » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:00 am

I believe your inscription is meant to be read "right to left" as opposed to English and many other languages which are read "left to right" _)

Here is a list of languages which are read "right to left" = I believe the language on the bowl would be in this list:

Arabic
Aramaic
Azeri
Dhivehi/Maldivian
Hebrew
Kurdish (Sorani)
Persian/Farsi
Urdu

AG2012
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby AG2012 » Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:13 am

Armenian Script/Handwriting

Aguest
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby Aguest » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:52 am

My mistake, meant to write Armenian, and I researched Armenian script and it is right, I know a native speaker of Armenian who is also fluent in Russian and English, and can read and write all three languages, she should be able to translate.

GSARAYDAR
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby GSARAYDAR » Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:58 pm

AG2012 wrote:Hi,
``AA`` (no pellet,dot between initials) could be А.Афанасьев (Александр).According to PL book he worked 1859-1884.
Example of his mark at later date.
Regards
Image

Thank you. Does the 1858 on the bowl mean the Date?

GSARAYDAR
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Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 6:21 pm

Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby GSARAYDAR » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:00 pm

Aguest wrote:My mistake, meant to write Armenian, and I researched Armenian script and it is right, I know a native speaker of Armenian who is also fluent in Russian and English, and can read and write all three languages, she should be able to translate.

Thank you. Please let me know. I have had one Armenian look at it and the could not read it. Any help would be great. Thanks again. Glenn

GSARAYDAR
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby GSARAYDAR » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:05 pm

More Pictures. Image. Image . Image .

AG2012
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby AG2012 » Mon Apr 16, 2018 2:19 am

Does the 1858 on the bowl mean the Date?


Yes,the year was struck by the assayer.

GSARAYDAR
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby GSARAYDAR » Mon Apr 16, 2018 9:49 pm

AG2012 wrote:
Does the 1858 on the bowl mean the Date?


Yes,the year was struck by the assayer.


So if it is a Viktor Vasilyevich Savinsky piece it is earlier than the date range of his work listed,

GSARAYDAR
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby GSARAYDAR » Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:08 pm

AG2012 wrote:Hi,
``AA`` (no pellet,dot between initials) could be А.Афанасьев (Александр).According to PL book he worked 1859-1884.
Example of his mark at later date.
Regards
Image

I found this a a possible: Image Moskow 1856 (P-L # 2011)
silversmith Aleksandr Afanasbev
(Postnikova-Loseva # 2141)
assayer Viktor Savinkov
(Postnikova-Loseva # 2112)

AG2012
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby AG2012 » Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:55 am

Searching for the maker is not easy.
This is the list of Moscow silversmiths with A.A. matching initials and date frame (from V.Skurlov).No images of marks, though.


Akimov Alexey
АКИМОВ Алексей, 1858: 26 л., 1860: в Московском купечестве. Сын: Федор, 1860 г. р.

Alexeev Alexey
АЛЕКСЕЕВ Алексей, 1852: мещанин, лавка

Ananiev Alexander
АНАНЬЕВ Александр Ник.,1853: цеховой, СДМ, клеймо: А. А.

Andreev Alexander
АНДРЕЕВ Александр, 1853–1861: мещанин, СДМ, клеймо: А. А.

Astrakhantsev Andrei
АСТРАХАНЦЕВ Андрей Иванович, 1853–1861: цеховой, СДМ, 1858: 69 л., умер в 1869 г. Сын: Алексей, 1858: 37 л., умер в 1861 г. Сыновья Алексея: Ефим, 1874: 30 л., умер в 1878 г., Иван, 1858: 14 л., в рекрутах с 1867 г., Гавриил, 1858: 12 л., Петр, 1858: 11 л., умер в 1859 г., Михаил, 1858: 2 г., умер в 1864 г. Клеймо: А. А.

Afanasiev Alexander
АФАНАСЬЕВ Александр, 1859–1884: СДМ, Постникова—Лосева: клеймо № 2141.

GSARAYDAR
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby GSARAYDAR » Fri Apr 20, 2018 2:00 pm

AG2012 wrote:Searching for the maker is not easy.
This is the list of Moscow silversmiths with A.A. matching initials and date frame (from V.Skurlov).No images of marks, though.


Akimov Alexey
АКИМОВ Алексей, 1858: 26 л., 1860: в Московском купечестве. Сын: Федор, 1860 г. р.

Alexeev Alexey
АЛЕКСЕЕВ Алексей, 1852: мещанин, лавка

Ananiev Alexander
АНАНЬЕВ Александр Ник.,1853: цеховой, СДМ, клеймо: А. А.

Andreev Alexander
АНДРЕЕВ Александр, 1853–1861: мещанин, СДМ, клеймо: А. А.

Astrakhantsev Andrei
АСТРАХАНЦЕВ Андрей Иванович, 1853–1861: цеховой, СДМ, 1858: 69 л., умер в 1869 г. Сын: Алексей, 1858: 37 л., умер в 1861 г. Сыновья Алексея: Ефим, 1874: 30 л., умер в 1878 г., Иван, 1858: 14 л., в рекрутах с 1867 г., Гавриил, 1858: 12 л., Петр, 1858: 11 л., умер в 1859 г., Михаил, 1858: 2 г., умер в 1864 г. Клеймо: А. А.

Afanasiev Alexander
АФАНАСЬЕВ Александр, 1859–1884: СДМ, Постникова—Лосева: клеймо № 2141.



Thank you, Glenn

GSARAYDAR
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby GSARAYDAR » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:57 pm

I have a translation. If the language is Georgian , it says "Woman Isabeth, 8 months pregnant, gift for use"

kingpin777
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Re: silver bowl dated 1858 brought out of Armenia in 1896

Postby kingpin777 » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:27 pm

GSARAYDAR wrote:I have a translation. If the language is Georgian , it says "Woman Isabeth, 8 months pregnant, gift for use"

Do not know for a fact this is the exact translation, but you are 100% right that the language is Georgian


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