Judaica - stamps, help needed.

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
madej
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby madej » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:09 am

Goldstein
One more thing, I agree that often different objects were combined to create one, especially for original signatures, but did you meet with such small candlesticks that could be the basis for these besamima
Regards

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 882
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Goldstein » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:06 pm

Hi madej -

madej wrote:I think the easiest way is to go to the Jewish community in Cracow and Katowice and talk to the Rabbi about this besamim.


That´s the solution!

Regards
Goldstein

madej
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby madej » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:39 pm

Hi Goldstein
So I will:)
Please tell me if you met with such small candlesticks that may be the basis for this besamim?

Dane111
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Dane111 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:20 pm

Goldstein wrote:Hi Dane111 -
...We all know what happened in Poland from 1939 - 1945 with the Jewish population and their property! After that the Red Army followed....
And now we have the most abundant accumulation of Judaica in the whole world!...
Regards
Goldstein


Good evening Goldstein,

Poland I Republic was very tolerant, multi national country, opposite to some other European nations these days. Poland accepted many expelled Jews: from Germany (1346), Hungary (1349–1526 and 1686–1740), France (1394), Austria (1420), Spain (1492), Portugal (1497), Kiev (1886), Moscow (1891). In the result, in 1939 there were about 3 milions of Jews in Poland, what was the biggest Jewish diaspora on the world. It's rather clear, that biggest population of Jews should leave the biggest number of Jewish items, particularly after Germans killed most of jews in Poland during WW2. Even if there were no war nor Holocaust in - let's say - Iceland, I don't expect to find many Jewish items there, as there were almost no Jews on Iceland (if I'm wrong with Iceland, take Singapur, Eastern Island etc). I would look in a country a lot Jewish people living or used to live.

Imagine situation in Poland during German occupation, when Jews found out what is prepared for them by Hitler. What they do with silver? Take into the train to Aushwitz? When they have 2 minutes to leave the house? Think about some other options:
-Selling silver items for cash/coins to anybody, to get cash to bribe Germans or pay for escape or just eat something.
-Changing silver for food/medicins.
-Just leaving silver at home while escaping (obviously later stolen by somebody). [Try to imagine how many Jews hidden they treasures (ritual silver too), when war started or when Hitler (around 1941/42) signed the order of Jews elimination and it all started. You are not thinking about your collection but life.]
-Burrow in ground, hidden in houses, gardens, forests. [Imagine how much was found after the war during repairs in houses only.]
-Giving to Polish and other people rescuing Jews as a thank you gift.
-Asking Polish friends to keep valuables, as it was more safe for Polish than Jewish.
-................................

How many Jewish items were sold or given to Polish before 1939? Do you think it's impossible that some Jews in Poland were in desperate need of cash sometimes? What they do - sell silver or leave in pawnshop.

Probably milions of items changed ownership during the war. It's impossible Germans and Russians took out all of them from the territory of Poland. If you think this way, you should say that each work of art in any museum or collection in Poland is fake, if was not purchased from abroad after 1945. There is massive number of items destroyed or stolen during WW2, but incomarable more left in museums, private collections, churches, houses, hidden by people during war etc. Do you know that second largest city in Poland - Cracow - was not destroyed during the war? There where not uncontrolled robbery by Germans nor Soviets. Many cities/towns like that. Lot of items in houses in such cities were in same places before and after the war. Except of Jewish districts/buildings, of course.

From other side - lot of Germans had stolen Jewish silver. Do you think all of them, like officer spending 5 years in Warsaw, would take all stolen items to Germany? Or had possibility to ship it earlier? What about soldiers who were stealing really lot of items? Making collection of Jewish art? Really? What about soldiers going i.e. to Eastern front in 1943? Taking silver to the frontline somewhere in Russia, where it has no value? Or being on the front line and stealing after battles? IMO, they were selling stolen items immediately when possible. Don't you think a lot would sell to pay casino, girls, alcohol, food or just to have more cash for life? I'm sure most of them sold silver in place they were these days, in Poland. Not many sent to Germany, not many took while escaping against the Red Army. Rather gold, jewelry, precious stones, not silver, too cheap for size. To recognise valuable silver items knowledge is needed, not the best side of soldiers. Obviously, lot of silver was "confiscated", so went officially. Probably most of these items were simple destroyed, to get silver bullion. But lot of was stored in the warehouses in Poland and really lot in Lower Silesia, later joined to Poland. Russians didn't take all when going East, they had friendly communist government.

So it's logical, that in Poland should be a lot of original, Jewish silver.

Best regards,
Dane

Dane111
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Dane111 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:36 pm

Goldstein wrote:Hi -

some Sabbat cadlesticks from my collection just to show that the Jewish silversmiths were able to work according to aesthetic criteria!
Compare with the shown objects.
From top to bottom:
Sztern, Malcz, Pogorzelski, Radke, Riedl, Szegman
Image

Regards
Goldstein


It's exactly same aesthetics and style as besamins we've shown you. Legs have very similar decoration with grapes on the background of leaves, precision and quality of finish is very similar, but nice polished, flower "ring" in higher part - almost same. You only confirm my theory, that this style was existing in Warsaw, probably around 1880-1910, as I didn't find earlier and later items. Sorry, I don't buy your opinion that all these examples we've shown you in links are fakes made of original pieces of candelabras. How it's possible that fake maker would find so many candelabras in the same style and proper size? Why not use more similar to the popular spice boxes everybody knows very well? Your idea is not logical.

Best regards,
Dane

Dane111
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Dane111 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:53 pm

Hello Goldstein,

I have prooved you that there are items made by Charlap before dates mentioned in the scan below (not only spice boxes, many examples of Charlap works). So this information is not true. Can you accept fact that other common opinions can be wrong, too? Why can't you accept fact that this kind of spice box could exist in turn of 19th and 20th c. in Warsaw area, or in Poland? After seeing examples in METMuseum, Yerusalem museum and many others?

Best regards,
Dane

Goldstein wrote:Image

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 882
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Goldstein » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:59 pm

Hi madej -

this is my last tray - I will not answer further questions!

1) I explained the situation of the Jews and their old, authentic silver in Poland - World War II, Holocaust, "Liberation" of the Red Army, Communism.
In short: there was not much silver left 1945 !!!!
You can assume that only little silver fom Poland under Russian rule survived in Poland! The silver from Poland under Russian rule which survived comes from all over the world - NOT -from Poland!!! Maybe a book over the Polish history of the last 150 years would help! Knowledge is power!
2) Poland was many years the number one manufacturer of Russian fakes until other countries were better and more successful. So what to do?
They started a new branche of fakes: judaica. Not very skilled doing this (the reason why they lost the Russian silver business) they try do fabricate with what they have all those bizarre and grotesque Thora pointers, Besamims etc. One of this ridiculous Frankenstein monsters you have posted: Half part Sabbat lighter - half part silver scrap. I told you this "producers" are not skillful - now you can see it with your own eyes! Polish quality!

madej wrote:Please tell me if you met with such small candlesticks that may be the basis for this besamim?

Please read what is written above! Maybe the candlestick was stolen, found or excavated in some old house - I do not know. There were no small candlesticks! I showed you a lot original candlesticks. Cannibalization is the magic word.
Now all is said! Buy some books and read, avoid the purchase of Russian or Polish silver and start using your brain. Do not offend people who know more than you - listen to them and learn.
End of sermon!

All the best
Goldstein

Dane111
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Dane111 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:05 pm

Dear Goldstein,
Goldstein wrote:[...] When you visit the Polin Museum next time - just ask them from where all the exhibits come from. [...]
Regards
Goldstein

The database from Polin Museum does not show what they have. It's database made by Polin, with pictures of Judaica from other museums in Poland. I wrote it. So it's not a new collection created for Polin Museum.

All these items in museums, some probably with well known provenance, are fakes made of candlesticks? With different Charlap stamps (full name / monogram) and different dates and assayer's? Why so many in this style with Charlap's mark, some with other silversmiths (mostly from Warsaw) and not a single one from Petersburg, Moscow or other Russian cities?

You have a brave theory. Somebody found a lot of candlesticks in the same style, mostly from Warsaw area, with bases not similar to common spice towers (he intended to fake), found other matching parts, created missing elements (skilled beast!), connected everything, cut flags - each little different in shape, stamped some flags and doors with the fake stamp (as I know, the flag/door is not part of the candlestick, so it was made while making fake, so had to stamp it, so stamp is fake - but you said stamps were original, but cut from candlesticks) and started selling during the years, as I see many different aquisition dates in museums or auction offers. Or maybe produced them in Poland in years after the war, to have time to spread it worldwide? In early communist time making fakes of antiques? When authorities were rather destroying antiques as memory of the "wrong system"? BTW, he was amazing skilled, as he was selling them worldwide these days, when it was difficult to send a letter abroad.

Don't you think that most simple matching theory is most probably correct? I believe in simplicity. So simple theory is that these items are originals, but for some resons you can't accept it. You are fighting with logic now.

Answer one question:
You said stamps were originals, cause it's original base of the candlestick. What about stamps which we can sometimes find on door or flags? Don't tell me that now you noticed these stamps are fakes. Originals, cut from other pieces? Fake maker should be a milioner having so much original silver to find stamps on parts having proper shape for flag/door and matching stamp on the base?

Do you really believe fake maker would make so much effort to fake a cheap item like spice tower? Made by almost unknown master? Why not better a name, i.e. Malcz, if Polish? He had to buy silver candlesticks + other parts, overwork them, buy silver, make himself or order parts characteristic for spice tower, keep the silver standard .875 in all parts (I checked), make many various stamps with different assayer's and create something not looking like typical spice tower? spending huge work and a lot of cash on it? Why not to copy existing shape, what is more simple to sell? Or, if you agree with me, that it's too much work for one fake-maker, maybe there was a group of people in different periods and places, who found out the brilliant idea of making fake in not existing shape of spice box?

Sorry, if you don't agree with logical arguments, examples shown in museums worldwide (I left most of auction houses links aside), it means that you simply can not admit to a mistake or even minimal lack of knowledge. Do not offend, statement of fact: looking on your older posts on forum, this is most likely version. It's not only my opinion, some members had already stopped discussing with you, it's waste of time. You are well protected against arguments.


Goldstein wrote:Hi madej -
Years ago when in Munich/Germany the new build synagoge was inaugurated I went there in the hope to find some old, authentic judaica from the big jewish community from the east, which I could photographe for my files. I saw only new replicas (no fakes). When I asked for the reason, the answer was: not much authentic material survived. Maybe in Poland everything was different from the rest of Europe, we only do not know it. I am sure you can explain why so many fakes come from Poland and why the museums there are full of antique, authentic judaica.
[...]
Regards

Goldstein

Yes, in Poland was different, as it was the biggest population of Jews in one country, living there for centuries. In Germany lot of Jewish citizens had chance to escape after 1933 when Hitler took control. The pressure from Nazis was coming step by step. Cristal Night was in 1938, five years to understand the situation and escape. Not under rifles, like in Poland during German occupation. Jewish who escaped from emigration were prepared for emmigration, taking valuables to include silver. In 1933-36 it was possible, later-harder. Population of Jews in Germany in 1933 was estimated ca. 500.000, in 1939 - 202.000 + 57.000 in Austria, in 1941 - 163.000 (Germany + Austria). Bibliography below. Compare it to 3.000.000 Jews in Poland in 1939. Add logical conclusion, that Jews emigrating in 1933-41 were probably quite rich, really poor had not big options, so most chance had silver items and sure they didn't have to sell silver to pay the travel, but they could take with them.

Facts: in 1941 number of Jews in Poland was 18,4 times bigger than in Germany. Jews in Germany had opportunity to escape with valuables from Germany (period 1933-1941), in Poland - not. Over 80% of Jews in Poland were killed by Germans, so about 2.100.000 people lost all they had on Polish territory. And you try to tell me that Germans and Russians took it all behind borders, particularly when big part of Germany became Poland after 1945? It's logical for me that in Poland should be incomparable bigger number of original Judaica than in Germany.

Source of data:
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.ph ... d=10005468
[...]By September 1939, approximately 282,000 Jews had left Germany and 117,000 from annexed Austria. Of these, some 95,000 emigrated to the United States, 60,000 to Palestine, 40,000 to Great Britain, and about 75,000 to Central and South America, with the largest numbers entering Argentina, Brazil, Chile, and Bolivia. More than 18,000 Jews from the German Reich were also able to find refuge in Shanghai, in Japanese-occupied China.
At the end of 1939, about 202,000 Jews remained in Germany and 57,000 in annexed Austria, many of them elderly. By October 1941, when Jewish emigration was officially forbidden, the number of Jews in Germany had declined to 163,000. The vast majority of those Jews still in Germany were murdered in Nazi camps and ghettos during the Holocaust[...]

Dane111
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Dane111 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:21 pm

Goldstein wrote:Hi madej -
1) I explained the situation of the Jews and their old, authentic silver in Poland - World War II, Holocaust, "Liberation" of the Red Army, Communism.
In short: there was not much silver left 1945 !!!!
You can assume that only little silver fom Poland under Russian rule survived in Poland! The silver from Poland under Russian rule which survived comes from all over the world - NOT -from Poland!!! Maybe a book over the Polish history of the last 150 years would help! Knowledge is power!
All the best
Goldstein

I've never heard such a huge bulls***. There is a plenty of antiques, to include Jewish silver, which survived WW2 in Poland. You don't know what you are talking about. You imagine all Poland as Warsaw - totally destroyed by Germans. IT IS NOT TRUE!!! Do you know that during occupation, people were working, living somewhere, loving each other, eating? From about 35.000.000 Poles, ca. 5.000.000 were killed during WW2. 30.000.000 left - do you really believe all of them lost everything? Can you imagine logistics needed to move assets of 30.000.000 to Germany and back to Sovet Union? Read some books. Read about some collections in Poland. Read about hussar armours in Czartoryski Museum, items after Polish Kings in Warsaw or Cracow. It survived the war. Same with a lot of cheap, Jewish silver. There was so much of that, that even if 3% survived is much more than in Germany. Again what I wrote you - 3.000.000 Jews in Poland in 1939 and 180.000 in Germany. Do you catch numbers?

Here you have picture of Krakow during German occupation. This flags should help you to recognise the period.

(admin edit - see Posting Requirements )

Does it look like a city were somebody took all the silver cuttlery from all citizens?

http://www.kigalczynski.pl/english/gale ... wkrak.html - 4th picture.
Inside a house in Krakow, 1946. They have hunting trophy, graphic and two miniatiures on the wall? Is it possible? Germans left, Red Army left (besides some bases) and they have something what survived the war? Impossible! Fake picture!!!

Dane111
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Dane111 » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:36 pm

Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:07 am
Goldstein wrote:[...]As stated already "this freak" has been built from different parts - using an authentic chandelier part with authentic stamps (Warsaw under Russian rule). This is called "cannibalism falsification".[...]


Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:59 pm
Goldstein wrote:[...]There were no small candlesticks! I showed you a lot original candlesticks.[...]


No small candlesticks to make proper size spice box, but this "freak" was built using authentic chandelier parts. Is any comment needed?

If stamps are authentic, I ask for answer again - how it's possible that many examples of this model of spice box, have stamps on flag and door (check links we've found, items in museums)? Are flags parts of candlesticks?

Best regards,
Dane

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 882
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Goldstein » Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:17 pm

Hi Dane111 -

Image

I would have liked to have an intellectual duel with you, but as I can see, you are unarmed.

I wish you the best

Goldstein

madej
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby madej » Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:56 am

Goldstein
You write
"Do not offend people who know more than you - listen to them and learn"
Goldstein
when I offended you?

Dane111
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Dane111 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:10 am

madej wrote:Goldstein
You write
"Do not offend people who know more than you - listen to them and learn"
Goldstein
when I offended you?


Dear Goldstein,

you offend people all the time. You are not kind, you don't discuss, you place here wrong opinions, you can't accept own mistakes, you harm people telling them originals are fake. You write about history without basic knowledge, I prooved it. You are not able to make logical conclusions, if it doesn't follow your theory. I wonder why you've changed your nickname so many times, Mr. Zolotnik, vel Goldstein, vel Sazikov, vel... Using German word, you should understand, you need some Kinderstube. Try to concentrate on recognising stamps, you have amazing knowledge in this field. And more respect to other people. And try to be more "loose", live does not start and finish on silver.

Regards,
Dane

Dane111
Posts: 26
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2017 5:47 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Dane111 » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:34 am

Goldstein wrote:Hi Dane111 -

Image

I would have liked to have an intellectual duel with you, but as I can see, you are unarmed.

I wish you the best

Goldstein


Hi Goldstein/Zolotnik/Sazikov/Postnikov,

first - when you post pictures of signatures made from distance, use system allowing to see big picture, not ca. 600x600 pixels. Somebody as experienced as you, should know, that recognising authenticity on the base of pictures only is always risky and if one does it, needs really good material. I can see no details of the stamp you've shown.

Anyway, I've seen original post with these pics, in better resolution. If you compare it with some works by Reiner, from collections in Israel, you can see stamps used, examples below:
Image
Image
Image
Don't waste your time, I know the answer, this item is fake, cause you said it and all similar items by Reiner, in collections in Israel, are fakes too. Same with Charlap. Cause it was impossible any silver survived the WW2 and Soviet period in Poland. And cause all Judaica silver on the market is fake. And cause you don't know this model, so it could not exist. It's made of candlestick, which does not exist in this size, as you said. So virtual candlestick with original hallmarks was used to make real fake. Interesting, as British say when are totally bored with something.

About intelectual duel - I don't comment, we are here to talk about silver, not if I'm idiot or just stupid, cause I ask for help. I should fall on my knees and accept alogical opinions of older and smarter. Sorry, not me, wrong person to hit.

Best regards,
Dane

Goldstein
contributor
Posts: 882
Joined: Sat Dec 12, 2015 9:53 am

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby Goldstein » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:22 am

Hi Dane111-

Frequently discussions concerning fakes degenerate into shouting, accusations, increased adrenaline, ego/attitude, and good members end up being banned, restricted or bail out......

Dane111 wrote:you offend people all the time. You are not kind, you don't discuss, you place here wrong opinions, you can't accept own mistakes, you harm people telling them originals are fake. You write about history without basic knowledge, I prooved it. You are not able to make logical conclusions, if it doesn't follow your theory. I wonder why you've changed your nickname so many times, Mr. Zolotnik, vel Goldstein, vel Sazikov, vel... Using German word, you should understand, you need some Kinderstube.


This is the usual vocabulary that is used. Actually, I had expected more wit and less clumsiness. What is still missing is that you call me an antisemite. If you would kindly supplement this, we could put the whole matter to rest.

Regards
Goldstein

oel
co-admin
Posts: 3288
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby oel » Thu Oct 12, 2017 12:08 pm

Hidden agendas and Personal battles fought at Russian forum.

Dane111 wrote:
About intelectual duel - I don't comment, we are here to talk about silver, not if I'm idiot or just stupid, cause I ask for help. I should fall on my knees and accept alogical opinions of older and smarter. Sorry, not me, wrong person to hit.

you offend people all the time. You are not kind, you don't discuss, you place here wrong opinions, you can't accept own mistakes, you harm people telling them originals are fake. [i]You write about history without basic knowledge, I prooved it. You are not able to make logical conclusions, if it doesn't follow your theory. I wonder why you've changed your nickname so many times, Mr. Zolotnik, vel Goldstein, vel Sazikov, vel... Using German word, you should understand, you need some Kinderstube.

Simple facts.
Warnings ;
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=48848&p=147936#p147936
https://techfeatured.com/5393/fake-coun ... ica-beware
https://www.facebook.com/auctiontrack/
https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/fake ... es-1.13874
http://www.silvercollection.it/dictiona ... fakes.html
Not all Museum collections are kosher
https://www.theguardian.com/culture/201 ... akes-china
http://metro.co.uk/2017/07/10/almost-al ... s-6768696/
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-m ... story.html

My advise to all of us read critically and form your own opinions.

Peter.

madej
Posts: 214
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: Judaica - stamps, help needed.

Postby madej » Thu Nov 16, 2017 5:15 pm

Hi Goldstein

Below the photo from the book "Polish Jewelery" As you can see here is a picture with besamim (fourth from the right)about which you say that in this form did not exist. I also put the text from the book where in the ninth line from the bottom it is written "recent research has shown that in the second half of the 19th century in Poland developed the LOCAL TYPES OF JUDAIC BESAMIM"
Do you still think that this type of besamim could only be in Poland and not a modern invention?
Click on the photo for better quality.
Regards


Image

Image

Image

Image


Return to “Russian Silver”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests