Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Sun Jan 31, 2016 9:46 am

Back to the topic:
Some Tscharki (no - not teaglass holders/podstakanniki!) from Morozov - better: made by Kubarev, Wasilij - sold by Morozov. Unfortunately the lacquer work was never signed by the artists - so we will never know who made this nice subjects.
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Sources

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Photos and objects by Goldstein

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Jan 31, 2016 10:33 am

A very nice charka indeed. However, would you mind telling us what initials are in kokshnik hallmark?

Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Sun Jan 31, 2016 11:39 am

Oh....I am glad you asked!
Assayer: ЯЛ, Jakov Ljapunov 1898-1903, St. Petersburg
Maker: Kangin, Wasilij 1895-1908
Sorry - I always confuse Kubarev with Kangin - identic mark.
Source: Postnikova-L. p 181/1244-46

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Jan 31, 2016 12:09 pm

Indeed my good man indeed it is Jakov Ljapunov and he assayed in St Petersburgh while Kubarev worked in Moscow! This is what I meant when talking about drawing hasty conclusions. The maker's and assayer's location must correspond. Nonetheless, nice charka anyway. I have another question; what is the height (not the handle) and diameter of the charka? Thank you in advance.

Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Sun Jan 31, 2016 1:56 pm

Please mind your choice of words, do not patronazingly call me "good man"!
Stick to facts! It was no hasty conclusion but a simple confusion - nearly the same word - but different meaning. Maybe no dictionary at hand?

Hight 5,5 cm, overall with handle 7,5 cm
Diameter body 5,5 cm, diameter stand 7,5 cm
All 3 have the same measures.

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Sun Jan 31, 2016 2:07 pm

Yes of course a simple "confusion"...

Thank you for the measures.

Ubaranda
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Ubaranda » Tue Feb 02, 2016 1:41 pm

Qrt.S wrote:Latin
.............
AH is Adam Herttuainen
.............


Where is this information? Who is Hertuainen? The maker mentioned in 1892-1900... The mark AH in oval (with dots and without dots) often appears together with marks of famous sellers such as Vladimirov, Lyubavin, Morozov etc. But maybe this mark belongs to Albert Holmström - the son and the successor of famous maker August Holmström?

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Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Tue Feb 02, 2016 3:55 pm

Hi Ubaranda -

for me most of the name marks are later added. Number 2 from above is a total fake.
The marks I have or know look different /more precise.
Who Hertuainen is - I do not know. When asked, Q.rtS refuses srictly to name sources.

Regards
Goldstein

piette
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby piette » Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:43 pm

Hi all,

Perhaps not all of you have access to such good resources as Qrt.S and me! ;-))

Herttuainen Adam was a Finn, born in 1853 who moved to St Petersburg where he started a silver workshop where he produced only table silverware to be retailed by St Petersburg jewellers (including Faberge and others!). He went on to marry the daughter of Stephan Wakeva (Faberge workmaster) and died in 1927, having moved back to Finland after the revolution.

P

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Feb 03, 2016 3:33 am

Thank you for the backup piette. Nice to hear from you again.
Actually I decided not to write anymore in this thread for obvious causes. Unfortunately I have to do it because Goldstein is repeatedly attacking me for unknown reason. First of all I mention sources when there is a need for it. It is up the reader to believe or not what I write.

As to Goldstein’s writings and referring to sources. You have mentioned that you use among other sources Watts and Traina. Those books are unreliable (admin edit). It is commonly known that they full of faults. Who know what other inexact books and sources you use. About JA that Ubaranda stated ”perhaps” being Johan Allenius but you claimed JA to be Allenius showing as proofs pictures with JA in connection with Morozov's mark reffering to Postnikova #1760. However, Postnikova doesn't say a single word of Allenius working with Morozov. What proof is that? When I said it could as well be Johan Alberg and even mentioned the source and asking you not to make any hasty conclusions based on disjointed facts you went silent. If you find a similar mark in books or elsewhere, it doesn't automatically mean that it is a Morozov subcontractor or work master. The same goes for Mihail Bogdanov #1331. What indicates him working for Morozov as you claim? Yes, it is possible but not a 100% proof.

I caught you later claiming that a charka assayed by Jakov Lyapunov in St Peterburgh was made Vasily Kubarev, who happens to work in Moscow! Oh, you said, it was a ”mistake”…!? Sure it was. Then you claimed the mark to be Vasily Kangin…!? Based on what, probably because BK is mentioned in Postnikova and in your opinion that's that! Again a hasty conclusion based on nothing.

”Stick to facts” you said. I do, but how about you considering what is written above.

Now to the case AH. A friend of mine as well interested in silver happens to know Adam Herttuainen's grandgrandgrand child and his cousins. I’m a Finn you know and so was Herttuainen too. I believe relatives knows who their ancestor was and what he did in the past. Also note what piette wrote and wonder where from he got this information. That is proof enough. AH is under no circumstances Albert Holmström.
Now Goldstein claims that the AH mark is added later on Ubaranda's objects and that the second mark is a fake. I wonder what is the base for that claim?

admin edit
Last edited by oel on Wed Feb 03, 2016 6:18 am, edited 4 times in total.
Reason: Foul language/off topic

Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:28 am

Hi Qrt.S -
I'm proud of you! You never disappoint me and I am grateful that we are allowed to take part in your all-encompassing knowledge. I think it's about time to rewrite the entire literature on Russian silver - who could do it better than you?
From your last post I remember only one meaningful sentence:
Qrt.S wrote:It is up the reader to believe or not what I write.

Yes! As always - you've hit the nail on the head.
Goldstein

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Feb 03, 2016 4:35 am

I believe you you could do it better and it seems to me that you are already doing it with thesis picked from the sky!

Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:27 am

Hi Qrt.S -
let´s stop this nonsense! It is contraproductive and poison the atmosphere. For the other participants/ readers its ridiculous, embarassing and very boring.
Let´s get back to the topic. The forum is named "Russian Silver" not "Fighting houswives"!
Back to work!

Goldstein

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:30 am

OK, fine with me!

Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:29 am

Hi Qrt.S -

just for your Interest from the Fabergé Researche Site created by oel

Traina, John, et al. The Fabergé Case: From the Private Collection of John Traina, 1998.
catalogue raisonné with color illustrations and extensive commentaries for the collection of cigarette cases and related accessories of John Traina from California.
A Case for Fabergé by Mikhail Piotrovsky | Fabergé's Cigarette Cases by Géza von Habsburg | On Collecting by John Traina | A Special Word about the Author by Danielle Steel | Fabergé's Russia | The Making of Fabergé's Cigarette Cases | The Cases in the Collection | Commentaries by Galina G. Smorodinova, Marina N. Lopato, Joyce Lasky Reed, Marilyn Pfeifer Swezey, Alice Milica Ilich | A Collection of Collections: Museums - Christopher Forbes, The Forbes Magazine Collection - John Webster Keefe, New Orleans Museum of Art - Anne Odom, Hillwood Museum - Harry S. Parker III & Lee Hunt Miller, Fine Arts Museums of San Francisco - Elsebeth Welander-Berggren, Nationalmuseum, Sweden - Henry Hawley, The Cleveland Museum of Art - The Royal Collection, The Queen's Gallery, Buckingham Palace - David Park Curry, Virginia Museum of Fine Arts | Fabergé Dealers and Collectors - A. Kenneth Snowman, Alexander von Solodkoff, Fabian Stein, Mark Schaffer, Ulla Tillander-Godenhielm, André Ruzhnikov | Workmasters in the Collection

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Feb 03, 2016 8:51 am

Yes. I´m familiar with the Fabergé Research Site. I'm as well familiar with Cristel McCanless the author of the site. What's your point?
Please read the link below:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=21991&hilit=Traina

Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Wed Feb 03, 2016 1:20 pm

My point is your recurrent criticism of the book by Traina. You apparently just repeat what Postnikov wrote about the fakes. This note referred to the Baltic (Estonia, Latvia) cigarette cases which were "upgraded" to phony Fabergé cases. Mr. Traina , more or less a layman had to trust his agents who bought the objects worldwide for him - you can take for granted that very much money was involved! All the shown Fabergé cases are 100% authentic, also the Hammer cases. You will never see so many and rare cigarette cases from Fabergé on top photos in one book again.
Unfortunately Mr. Traina died in the last years and his widow started to sell the collection. So there is only one reason for your scathing criticism: you never had this book in your hands or you paraphrased what Postnikov wrote completely. If you have this book you immediately understand what Postnikov
wanted to say.
An other problem for me is the total rejection of Watt´s book. In this forum are many visitors who are possible beginning collectors of Russian silver.
Many of the top books are out of print, others are unavailable or only in antiquariats for much money to have. Not to speak of Russian books which you more or less get only in Russia. Watt is inexpensive, easy to get and for the beginner extensively enough. 30 years ago I would have payed every price for this book. You only speak of mistakes, errors etc. Russian silver is a developing thing! The language is still today and the iron curtain was in the past an almost insurmountable barrier. In Russia it was and is not easy to get the permission to investigate in archives - still today.
I believe one has to think twoedged. There is a book for the beginner and the advanced - that is my opinion.
Maybe you can recommend some book(s) for the starters from your sight.

That´s what I wanted to straighten out. I hope for a peaceful and objectively discussion for the benefit of our newbies or intereste readers.

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:30 pm

@Goldstein
First of all stop attacking me. Didn't we agree on that? Secondly, don't put Postnikov's words in my mouth. I know exactly what Postnikov meant. You see I know him in person. Postnikov is a specialist in Russian cigarette and cigar cases and has also written a book about them. Thirdly, you have no idea of what books I have in my library or have read or not. When you realize what I stated above we can have fruitful discussions in the future.

The best book for beginners is and has been for many years Postnikova irrepective of some flaws and faults in it. Yes, it is out of print, expensive and hard to find, but so are most of these books containing valuable information as you also stated. Watts' book doesn't belong to this category.

I don't know if you know it or not, but here you have Postnikova for free: http://helprf.com/Uvlikbez/Proba/LocPoct/1.htm Much better than Watts.
A minor problem is the Russian language, but if a person is eager to learn about imperial Russian silver marks, it is not so difficult to learn the Cyrillic alphabet. It helps you a lot. Another excellent book is Leonard Bäcksbacka's book "St Petersburgs juvelerare, guld och silversmeder 1714-1870" but this book is really difficult to find and in addition in Swedish and indeed expencive. The easiest to find book is "Russian Silver late 10th -early 20th century". It is in English, printed 2010, and also relatively cheap. Ivanov's books are too complicated and expensive for beginners. There are other good books too....

And yes again, Russian silver is a developing area and not an absolute science. Therefore it is of utmost importance not to draw conclusions based on unverified information sometimes picked from the sky. Somebody might take a careless statement made here for the truth (Kubarev/Kangin), but is it? That is what I have wanted to point out all the time.

@Ubaranda

Adam Herttuainen was born 2.5.1853 in the county of Sulkava in Finland and died 3.7.1927 in the town of Terijoki on the Carelian isthmus. He had his big workshop on Rozhdestvenskaya uliza 6 in St Petersburg. The rest was told by piette eariler.

Qrt.S
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Feb 03, 2016 2:44 pm

Ahhh! I forgot completely. Here something worth to read an memorize..
Please note the authors!
http://www.silvercollection.it/dictionaryARTELS.html

Goldstein
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Re: Need help with Russian maker's mark under the Morozov company

Postby Goldstein » Wed Feb 03, 2016 5:01 pm

Hi Qrt.S -
thank you for your thoughts and recommendations. I for my part would still opt for Watt as beginner´s book (50.00 $$) instead of Postnikova-L., very hard to get (300.00 $$). A. Solodkoff´s book is also very informative and a must (70.00$$).
As long as you find every misspelling, uncover every confusion or hasty conclusion and know many people in person - the forum is in good hands.

Goldstein


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