Authentic or fake Faberge? Cigarette Case

[AG2012]

Qrt.S

It was an ironic comment only regarding cigarette case in silver and presumably ``Faberge`` in gold shown in the book, attributed to master Oskar Pihl, Moscow.But that`s another issue having in mind excellent quality and mostly guilloché by Oskar Pihl.On the other hand, two- color gold, especially the combination with famous Russian rose gold, is interesting because it`s difficult to make.
And last but not the least, having the same pattern by ``different`` makers and metals indicates the pattern has leaked out from original workshop, which,of course, would NOT be possible with Faberge. Or both cases were made at the same workshop. Or copied later.I am not very familiar with intellectual property rights (the pattern) in Russia at the time, but I suppose it was illegal to copy.
Still, two-color gold case is a mystery to me.
Your opinion is highly appreciated.
Have a nice Sunday

[Qrt.S]

@AG2012
:-))))) no problem, you are absolutely right but I was referring to your earlier comment 5.12 at 9.41 about the fake marks, not the latter one. I should have mentioned that, sorry

[AG2012]

My comment has been deleted.
Flaws revealed to help fakers? NO
I challenge them to overstrike enameled silver and make two-color gold with rose gold combination.(Enamel would crack and rose gold turned to yellow gold when immersed into acid after hard soldering).
Search for tumbaga gold made by the Pre-Hispanic American smiths. If left for decades in acid soil it would turn into almost pure gold, the copper being dissolved to water soluble components). But, this is beyond the scope of this forum. We did try to make ``Russian`` rose gold and failed – one cannot solder it for above mentioned reason.
Regards

[AG2012]

Not deleted.It was on page 2.SORRY!
I am getting old and wasting both your time and precious space.Excuse an old man.

[Qrt.S]

Heheheeeeee! We are all getting older and older. Never heard that somebody gets younger! Anyway, this is an interesting case. It has been relatively silent on these pages lately.

[AG2012]

Qrt.SYou have encouraged me to go on.Thanks.
Try this site.
http://www.antik-forum.ru/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=627
Not too difficult to engage in spite of Russian only.They also sell and bid
`` Продажа, покупка серебра России до 1917 года``
Regards

[Goldstein]

Who can read has a great advantage ..... probably still another book for the trash can......always too rude for my taste.




Please do not ignore the long known facts and overthink your changing answers. What happens if the OP do not buy this case for a very good price - because he trusted your first answer? Who answered questions also have a responsibility. One is better quiet if not 100% sure!

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

So you are 100% sure that the questioned case is authentic? Are you? If not, be quiet!
On the other hand, what happens if you are 100% sure and the bargain is made trusting your opinion and later it turns out that it is a fake?

One more time, the case is genuine but the Fabergé mark is not.
This is my personal opinion and nobody is forced to do anything based on it.

[Goldstein]

Now there is a compromise showing up:
In your opinion it first was a total fake, later it is an original but the marks are faked. You did not support that with any proofs. At least you moved.
In my opinion it is a total original, supported by several photos and text. People who collect/own Fabergé objects know that the Moscow shop was the "poorman´s" Fabergé - because there were sold mostly simpler and less expensive objects than in St. Petersburg - for example cigarette cases with "only" silver push buttons instead of carbochon thumb pieces. But in a forum as excellent as this I can expect this and more knowledge as existent.
Your opinion against my opinion is OK . I can live very good with that.
And last but not least:
if the OP buy the case and later detect it is a fake - it is his responsibility - my advice is with the best of my knowledge and many years of experience given on a public silver forum - but there is always a rest risk in life - we judge more or less brilliant photos. A 100% waterproof expertise needs a face to face examination!

[Qrt.S]

Interesting, you're not 100% sure anymore...As for me, if an object genuine or not carries fake marks, it is a fake.

[AG2012]

it is a total original, supported by several photos

Relying on photos is NOT a method of judgment. Too many issues are to be considered when deciding genuine or not. I will repeat my first post; Faberge did not overstruck maker’s marks, as clearly seen. That’s what pictures tell without having the object in our hands.

buy the case and later detect it is a fake

I do agree if it’s close to scrap value or an ordinary Russian cigarette case.

I think this subject has been exhausted.

[Qrt.S]

@Goldstein

Would you mind telling us in what public forum you are giving your experience and knowledge. I would be interested in knowing it and reading it.

Nonetheless, the picture in the first book has some similarities but that is all. It doesn't prove anything. The picture of the mark in the second book is a drawing, not a photo. A drawing doesn't either proof anything. I still claim that the case is not made in Fabergé's workshop in Moscow.
Moreover, I fully share AG2012 opinion that having the object in your hands is the without any doubts the best way for making judgements but in this case it is totally unnecessary.

For the records':
I have not said that the object is a total fake but the marks are and therefore making the object a fake. I was wrong about the hallmark but I'm not regarding the maker's mark. I wouldn't even think of buying this case for any reason whatsoever. It is also commonly known that Poland among some other countries is the homeland for quite a lot faked imperial Russian objects. This object seems to be in Poland.

[Qrt.S]

Sorry, forgot. There is a photo and with it a problem. You see the maker's mark HB has not been identified making the mark dubious. There are very few unidentified workmaster in Fabergé's workshops. If somebody knows who this HB is I would be glad to have that information. Thank you in advance.

[AG2012]

who this HB

What`s the mark beside HB? (red arrow). With due respect, a serious researcher and author cannot ignore any mark, especially in Faberge pieces (import marks, lombard marks etc....). That`s the fact.

[AG2012]

N.B. I am referring to the book above.

[Qrt.S]

??? what NB? Latin HB, but more likely Cyrillic NV, so please be a little more specific, thank you

[dognose]

N.B. is an abbreviation for the Latin nota bene, which means "note well." It is normally used at the beginning of a sentence in order to inform the reader that the following words are of great importance.

[Qrt.S]

Mea culpa, I took for granted that we are talking about the photo in the book and its mark HB.

[Goldstein]

Géza von Habsburg (Author of the book) describes this HB as HW - thinking of H. Wigström? But Wigström never marked as HB - as far as I know. I think it is perhaps N. Bobir from St. Petersburg with a new punch for Moscow....???
The "mystery" mark (red arrow) is the French import mark (swan).

[Qrt.S]

Géza von Habsburg (Author of the book) describes this HB as HW

This is unbeliavable, is that written in the book!? Forget Wigström. He worked in St Petersburg and he never used Cyrillic letters in his punch but marked Latin H.W. . How could he have marked HB? In Cyrillic letters it would have been XB or ГB. This is Moscow. The initials are HB.
Mind me as well asking how do you get Natan Mihailovich Bobir out of that? He marked НБ and НМБ. He is not known to have worked with Fabergé. The marks on the photos are more than very suspicious indeed as I have stated in the first place, which again points to the same fact i.e FAKE!