I did it again....

[Zolotnik]

Hi all -
A nice little table mirror or picture frame made also by the 3rd St. Petersburg Artel.






Enjoy
Zolotnik

Source PL
Archive Zolotnik

[AG2012]

Nice find - most likely dressing table mirror with original cut glass. I remember when a collector asked for a couple of missing screws; although I have miniature thread cutting tool it was very difficult to make tiny screws to look like those made by a Russian master. Even unscrewing them is beyond everyday use — so, I opt for the mirror; it would be too difficult to remove the back and set the photo now and then. On the other hand, I might be wrong if the frame is taken to the workshop and asked to set the picture. Whatever option it proves the utmost skill of Russian masters even when making screws. Btw. I suppose the screws are made of silver, too (have seen both steel and silver screws in frames like this).
Regards

[Qrt.S]

No, no, dear Zolotnik,

Take a closer look at the mark. The maker's mark's frame has It has cut edges. Compare it with the mark on the cigarette box in your other thread!
The third artel was indeed in St Petersburg but the assayer on the kokoshnik isИЛ who is Ivan Lebedkin. As I know you must know he was is Moscow not in St Petersburg. (Jakov Lyapunov (ЯЛ) was in St Petersburg at that time)

Please do not jump through the roof now! It is not a fake! It is from the 3 artel in MOSCOW! Very little and very few objects made in this artel are known. Take a look at the list you showed but not from St Petersburg but Moscow and you see what I mean. Look also what they manufactured. I think you have managed to find a rare object.

One more question. Are you sure it is really a mirror and not a photo frame? Doesn't look like a mirror frame to me. I think the glass is added later. In addition, the Moscow artel made photo frames...

[Zolotnik]

You are right - it is Moscow. I never found this mark on Moscow Artel objects - so I thought it was made in St. Petersburg but assayed in Moscow. Trades/swaps between the Artels were common, consisting sometimes only of 3-4 silversmiths. And not to forget they supplied also other firms with their goods. Some firms deleted the Artel marks, some not. Best example the firm of Morosov - he was more a vendor than a maker and always let the marks of the original maker stay on his merchandise. I have countless examples in my collection. That is what makes Russian silver so fascinating -there are always some surprises possible. If you do not have other authentic examples at hand, you easily could get some serious doubts.
In my opinion the object was sold as a frame (the frame is fastened with several easy to dismount screws - what was necessary to change photos), but later by some owner changed into a mirror. Why not - no harm done - just a matter of personal taste. Maybe you send me a photo of you in Sunday outfit - I send you the mirror :-)!

[Qrt.S]

Fine that we share the same opinion. Add the mark to the list of artels you have. It is a rare mark. Please find below the requested Sunday outfit and enjoy...:-)))
regards

[AG2012]

So, both Moscow and St Petersburg artels had the same mark. This Russian blog does not mention the 3rd Moscow artel, either. St Petersburg 3rd is mentioned, though, the mark is exactly the same.The blog provides pictures of artel marks.
http://antikvarus.ru/catalogItem/182/40765/
There is curious distinction of artel full names, not mentioned in PL, probably regarding the production; only silver (ÐСеребряная) or silver and jewelry (Ювелирная) as far as I understand.


Третья Артель Ювелирная
Екатеринский канал, староста артели: Иванов Василий Николаевич, работал на фирму Фаберже, Петроград, клеймо: 3яА



(The third jewelers` artel, Ekaterinski canal,headmaster Ivanov Vasili Nikolaevich, worked for Faberge, St Petersburg, mark 3яА).

(Had his own workshop at two different addresses until 1900).

[Zolotnik]

Hi AG2012 -
thank you for the interesting link - in contrary to Ivanov they have original marks!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Dad]

Hello. Merry Christmas.))

I wouldn't like to interrupt pleasant conversation of scientific experts. But I am compelled to make it. Hallmarks of this item are false. Bad work.


Or it is a Christmas joke and I didn't understand it? Because my English is bad? ((

[oel]

The neck of the kokoshnik and the assayer's initials and the oval appears to be off; the head of the kokoshnik is hitting the 'ceiling', and the rare 3rd Artel could be another red hearing!

For comparison


or
http://www.925-1000.com/Frussia_kokoshnik_01.html


Oel

[Dad]

Yes, Oel.

For more correct comparison:


(admin edit image)

[Zolotnik]

Hi all-
If the experts are of the opinion that the mirror / frame is a fake, I could not agree more!

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

Hmmmm... Now it became complicated. It is always difficult to evaluate marks based on photos only. It depends very much of the photographer's skills, the angle, sharpness, size, light conditions... etc. I'm not yet convinced that the frame is a fake. It needs a closer investigation. As for now I would say 50/50 chance.

[Qrt.S]

Hi AG2012 -
thank you for the interesting link - in contrary to Ivanov they have original marks!

Regards
Zolotnik

Well, mind my saying but many of the marks are copied from Ivanov, so----! (if not all, I didn't check all...)

[Zolotnik]

HI -
What is 50/50? With all respect it means I do not want to give a statement. Either the marks are wrong or they are legit. There is no escape way! I have seen and handeled too much Russian silver to be easyly cheated, though passionate, I do not want to see what is not there - but I also know that I learn everyday something new. I have seen perfect marks that were false and I have seen dubious marks that were authentic. The overall impression, the quality and existing similar objects (no maker made only one piece!) are a good way for a realistic estimation. The shape, size and form of marks vary very much - if you take just one to compare - mostly all the others must be wrong. The contrary is the case. That is the reason why I alwas opt for touching, investigate, compare and handle every piece of Russian silver you can lay your hands on. You will be astouned how different to in books shown marks the reality often can be. Show me 10 Kokoshnik marks - there are not two being identic.

Regards
Zolotnik

[Qrt.S]

HI -
That is the reason why I always opt for touching, investigate, compare and handle every piece of Russian silver you can lay your hands on.

Regards
Zolotnik

Correct, and that is exactly the reason why I say 50/50. Regarding your case I'm not sure and I NEED TO HAVE THE OBJECT IN MY HANDS before I give my final opinion until then the case is pending 50/50. Do you read me now?

[Zolotnik]

Hi
giving it into your hands .....I do not know ....no good feeling :-)