Caviar spoon 2

[Qrt.S]

I recently bought this caviar spoon. Please note that the bowl is gilded even if it doesn't look like that. The gold surface is rather worn. Anyway, one of the marks puzzles me. ( no problem with the Russian marks in the other photo) The strange mark is marked with a red circle in the right lower mark. The other marks in that photo are the marks of the first Estonian Republic used 1920-24. From left:

1. Fleur-de-lis, the first independent (1918-1940) Estonian hallmark.
2 84 zolotnik, the fineness 875/1000 and EW that stands for Eesti Vabariik (Republic of Estonia).

But the third mark, the rider!? I have never seen this rider in an oval frame in connection with these Estonian marks!


At first glance I thought it was St Eligius, Joseph Kopf''s maker's mark, but it isn't that mark. See picture below:


Any clues about the rider mark is much appreciated, thank you.

[Zolotnik]

Here some pages of the original Khlebnikov catalogue:




Text: For grainy caviar, 8 Rubles (!)

[Qrt.S]

Interesting, thank you but my spoon's mark is P. Ovtshinnikov. The spoon are very similar. Any ideas regarding the strange rider mark?

[Zolotnik]

I have some doubts about the Ovtschinnikov mark (I can not see who of the Ovtschinnikovs was the maker - unclear photo ). The assayer Anatoli Artsibaschev was 1897- 1898 on duty, the spoon is dated 1889, the St. Georg is facing left - in this form starting 1891-1896. The St. Georg on Pavel Ovtschinnikov silver is very signifikant and faces right. See photos:



Something does not fit.

[Qrt.S]

Of course you have some doubts, you always have. Anyway, you read Postinkova #2022. That is one of the faults in it. The correct period for this town mark is 1888-1896 and the correct period for Artsibachev in Moscow is 1888-1898, another fault in Postnikova #2125.

This the best I can do with the maker's mark. It is unfortunately a rather smudgy punch on the spoon. Hopefully this will satisfy you and kindly answer my question about the rider mark in the Estonian row of marks. Do you know its meaning? Thank you in advance. The rest is of less importance in this case.

[Zolotnik]

As always - no insight.
Someone who tells everybody that he is the only one who knows everything about Russian marks etc. gave me the following list


PL writes: 1891-1896
Hearsay is not good enough - proofs are important!
Tomorrow at daylight I will shoot some real Ovtschinnikov marks (they are very tiny but very sharp) and post them. Everybody will see the difference- The St. Georg´s style is not even mentioned by you - just one of several give aways of a fakemark you can ignore.
"Ask first - buy later " - the advice we give our newcomers to save money and avoid scrap silver.

[Qrt.S]

Sure thing, anybody can produce a list like that and it is by the way incomplete. It is not verified that Oleks was in Moscow 1892 and he could have been there also as from 1893-1904.Take also a look at P#180 and you will find that Artsibaschv was in Vilinus in 1887. In two places at the same time? It is, however, possible that he changed location sometime in 1887 to Moscow. Vasiliyev's working period could have been later 1896-1898. Skovronskij's working period is 1894-1908. Falejev assayed in Odessa 1911-1916, so he could not have been in Moscow 1912. After Romanov to 1917 there where 11 assayers in Moscow, one of them was Lev Oleks 1915-1917. Where are they? That's that about the reliability of your list.
As I have mentioned earlier Russian marks are difficult and silver marks is not an absolute science. Mistakes are made and unfortunately we lack an awful lot of information. This lack of information does not mean that close to everything that smells like Russian silver is faked even if there are a lot of dubious objects circulating on the market!

This is, however, not the topic here. It is the rider punch!

[Zolotnik]

As promised here some photos of the real Ovtschinnikov mark - it is 5 mm and very detailed especially the eagle. Now you can compare. Note the quality Ovtshinnikov was famous for.






In my opinion it is an Estonian made spoon a la Russe (even the monogram is in the so called Baltic style) - later upgraded with phony Russian marks. (admin edit)

[Qrt.S]

Just for the records a Moscow town mark with St George riding to the left as I earlier mentioned 1888-1896 or is this a fake too?
The assayer is Aleksandr Romanov in Moscow 1886-1894. The maker's mark is unknown at least to me.

[Zolotnik]

I gave you several on facts founded decision supports - now it is up to you to make the right conclusions - fake or not. It is your spoon...

[Qrt.S]

No, you didn't present any facts whatsoever, what you gave was your opinion only. Moreover, you claimed among other things as a fact that the left facing St Georg was used 1891-1896. Was that a fact? You can see the fact in my message above. End of this discussion!

[Zolotnik]

How about the significant St. Georg alwys used by Ovtschinnikov objects? Compare with your example.



By the way - I mostly trust much more in PL´s informations than in unconfirmed,anonym second hand guesses with dubious examples from the net!

[dognose]

Hi Guys,

I'm not sure that you are aware, but the debates between you both, although heated at times, are a huge source of information to those of us who only have a minimal knowledge of Russian silver and their hallmarking system and are desirous to learn more . Speaking for myself, the exchanges between you both over the years have expanded my awareness with the subject no end and I'm sure the same will apply to many others.

Thank you, and long may these discussions continue (but please be nice, it will soon be Christmas!).

Trev.

[Qrt.S]

Hmmmm... thank you anyway for your nice words Dognose it pleases me after all.
Anyway, I actually ended this discussion but on your request some additional comments. On the spoon Zolotnik shows St George is riding to the right. ...of course he does that because if he would ride to the left, the spoon would be undoubtedly a fake. St George is supposed to ride to the right in 1876! By the way, the spoon is, anyway, very dubious if not even spurious. Please note that P.Ovtshinnikov's mark is over stamped on an old mark. In addition, the court supplier mark is up side down if you compare it with Ovtshinnikov's mark below. Please especially notice that the double headed eagle and the maker's mark is one punch and not two. Take a look at the picture. One or two punches? A respectable company making objects in outstanding quality would never make a sloppy punch mistake like that! It is a question of reputation and quality. Moreover, the assayer's mark B.C is one of the most often copied marks on fakes. This does not necessarily prove anything but rises a red flag in my eyes!

Pavel Ovtshinnikov established his workshop in 1853 and marked ПО or П.О. . In 1865 he got the right to use the court supplier mark. As from that year he started to mark П.ОВЧИННИКОИЪ with the double headed eagle above. Sometimes without a dot after П. Later some other marks were used alongside. This continued to the bitter end in 1917.

Finally, the showed "authentic spoon" has nothing to do with the original case, which relates back to 1889 when St George rode to the left on the town mark.
Dear Zolotnik, sorry but in my eyes your spoon is a fake but you probably carry an other opinion, please do!

[Zolotnik]

In view of the Christmas peace I give you the last word - immensely important for you - even if you always dodging my sound arguments. I spoke of the significant form of the St. George used by Ovtschinnikov, but you avoid an answer - I miss that in your spoon. It does not matter! It is more or less no educated disput - it degenerates into a one man show. Maybe if you find the first authentic spoon you will rethink your present opinion. We all started slow but learned quick - others learn slow or never....

I am awaiting expectantly your perpetual last word without no contribution is normally ending.

[Qrt.S]

Over proved but still arguing...incredible attitude??? LOL!