1871 Kiddush Cup

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
silverly
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1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby silverly » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:14 pm

I have an idea of who the maker, assayer and etc are from the hallmark indexes on this site, but an expert identification would be very much appreciated.
Image

Zolotnik
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby Zolotnik » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:10 pm

Hi silverly -

the maker of this stopka (Kiddush cup is pure nonsens - again and again told from stupid dealers to stupid customers!) is Dmitriew Michail, 1854-1877.

Regards
Zolotnik

dognose
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby dognose » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:27 pm

Hi Silverly,

Is it an illusion, or are the hallmarks struck prior to the maker's mark being struck?

Trev.

silverly
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby silverly » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:52 pm

Thank you Zolotnik. Kiddush cup was the term used by the American jewish gentleman that sold the cup to me. I'm sure he didn't intend to disguise it's name. His price was tied to this "stopka's' scrap value.

Is there a way to distinguish a stopka from other similar cups?

Zolotnik
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby Zolotnik » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:36 pm

Hi silverly -

of course is there a way to distinguish a stopka (shotglass) from a rjumka (shotglass with a foot) or stakan (beaker): form, size and use. There are several more other drinking vessels (tscharka, kovsh etc).

STOPKA

Image

Image

Image

Image

RJUMKA

Image

Image

Image

Image

STAKAN

Image

Image

Image

Image

Regards
Zolotnik

silverly
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby silverly » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:37 pm

Hi Trev,

There is no question that the makers mark was done after the hallmark. It doesn't show up well in the image, but the rectangular cartouche for the maker's mark overlaps the hallmark.

Pat

silverly
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby silverly » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:40 pm

Zolotnik,

I shall have to remain in my stupor when it comes to properly identifying these cups, but I will say that those are beautiful examples you have shown. Great images.

Thank you,

Pat

Qrt.S
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:21 am

Yes the maker's mark is struck after the assaying marks. That is always an alarming sign. According to the Russian law it was strictly forbidden for the assayer to struck his mark on an unmarked object. There are, however, two possible explanations why the maker's mark is on the assaying mark:

1. It is an imported item brought by the Russian customs to the assaying office to be tested, approved and marked. Then the importer has struck his (retailer) mark on the object. This was not an unusual procedure. In 1871 there were no special import marks used.
or
2. It is a spurious object.

Zolotnik is right in calling it "stopka" rather than "kiddush cup". Dealers prefer to call them "kiddush cups" because it sounds more fancier and attracts more customers as well as the price can be put higher. Judaica objects are currently popular collecting objects. The most of such cups are ordinary Russian vodka cups (stopkas) only.

piette
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby piette » Tue Apr 30, 2013 4:55 am

Hi all,
Just a thought, but the stopka appears to also have a makers mark on the rim as shown in picture 1 - maybe the maker later added another on the base with the main hallmarks added by the assayer?
Also with regard to stopka vs. stakan... A stakan is much bigger than a stopka!
Regards,
P

madej
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby madej » Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:57 am

HI
I'm back to the old post with the question. Can I ask you to put the STOPKA, RJUMKA and STAKAN examples again. The photos are not visible.
Regards

Goldstein
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby Goldstein » Mon Aug 27, 2018 4:47 am

Hi -

why reading books - ask the forum!

Here some of the common drinking vessels - different materials are possible (enamel, laque, niello etc).

Champagneflute

Image

Kovshi

Image

Rjumki

Image

Stakan

Image

Stopki

Image

Tscharki

Image

etc.

Regards
Goldstein

AG2012
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Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby AG2012 » Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:02 am

Definitions are not strict and even Russian links are not consistent or definitions are rather vague.

Stopkа ``a small Stakan or Rjumkа, usually 50 - 100 ml``
(Сто́пка — небольшой стакан или рюмка)

Etymology from old volume measure (Как единица объёма).
Seems related to the volume, not the form (compare with shot glass).


Stakan `` drinking vessel of cylindrical form without handle``

(Стака́н — сосуд, близкий по форме к цилиндру, без ручки).

Rjumka (Pюмка)
Usually used for strong spirits, it is small in size, has no stem.
(для употребления спиртных напитков).

A native Russian speaker can hopefully shed more light.
The image is from a Russian link described as rjumka.

Regards

Image

madej
Posts: 348
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2015 6:46 pm

Re: 1871 Kiddush Cup

Postby madej » Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:03 am

Hi.
Thank you
Regards


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