Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
drillo
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Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:33 pm

Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby drillo » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:51 pm

Hello!
I have been owning this Tea Glass Holder for years and I just recently discovered this amazing forum, so I decided to ask for your opinions.
I think this piece is quite nice, but I am not sure if it is or not an original Faberge.
The silver piece is engraved, vermeil guilt and with enamelled monogramm. Each "detachable" part is hallmarked and complete marks are on the bottom.
I have tried to look up for the hallmarks and it looks to me as if the Moscow "St George" on the left as well as the "St George" on the "84" stamp are facing the wrong way (the horse head is on the left). Is that possible?
Please let me know your precious thoughts about it!
Thanks!

Images:
Image
Image
Image
Image

Zolotnik
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Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Zolotnik » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:39 pm

Hi drillo -
the shown podstakannik is "brandnew" - all marks incl. the mark of Fabergé are fake marks. The only original part is the defect (BF, F the family name)enamel monogramm - but nobody knows from which country it origins and from what time it is.

Regards
Zolotnik

drillo
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby drillo » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:09 pm

Dear Zolotnik,
thanks very much for your reply. I appreciate your advice.
Do you think the piece is new (a complete forgery) or an old item with fake hallmarks?
I have found an object with identical hallmarks, I would like to know what you think about that and the similar marks to mine

(admin edit - please, no linking to commercial websites - see Posting Requirements )

Tks again!

Zolotnik
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Location: Germany

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Zolotnik » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:14 pm

Hi drillo -

as already stated: the object is a complete, contemporary forgery. Just to remember and better understand: there is a whole industry involved faking Russian silver - everything - from spoons to icons!

Regards
Zolotnik

drillo
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby drillo » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:38 pm

Hi and tks again Zolotnik!
Yes, I know there is a big fake industry around Russian Silver.
I am not an expert on Russian silver, and that's the reason why I posted my item, and I appreciate your reply since I read other previous reliable comments you left!
I am happy keeping this piece in my collection anyway, no problem!
I was just curious to know your opinon about the other Glass holder with the same marks as mine. I apologize if the link was to a commercial website (sorry admin!), but it was only to understand and to learn for the future. If you had not seen the link, maybe I can save the image on tinypic without any reference to the website or its url (is this respectful of the website rules?)

I would also appreciate your expert opinion on my Russian Tea Caddy http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=29840 Thanks very much!

AG2012
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Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby AG2012 » Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:28 am

Image
Zolotnik often mentioned ``Spend energy learning about the real thing``
Right; what we have here is NOT a real thing.
This is not expected by Faberge excellent craftsmanship:
1. He would never have the rim finished like this
2. He would never solder the handle like this
3. The monogram and engraving are another matter; engraving is not excellent and a piece of enamel was needed to make it `` Faberge``.
Most probably taken from some lapel badge or whatever, and soft soldered (tin) to the body, covering the engraving, by the way. Faberge would probably have it made in champlevé enamel if the owner had insisted on monogram. Besides, the enamel is of poor quality.
If we had it in our hands we would most probably see more inconsistencies.
It was a nice, common piece of silver, I doubt it was completely newly made — too demanding task — easier to ruin what was at hand.

drillo
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby drillo » Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:30 am

Thanks for your comments AG2012!

Dad
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Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Dad » Mon Aug 13, 2012 5:55 am

Hi, All.

I think, it's original tea glass holder. But it's not "Faberge". It's made by Antip Kuzmitchev's factory (punch "AK") in 1882-1899. Look the punches on the handle and bottom edge(юбка).
"Faberge" + etc - it's modern upgrade for luck in sale ))))

Best Reg..

Zolotnik
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Location: Germany

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Zolotnik » Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:23 am

Hi Dad -
I can not see a clear punch on the handle - only something that looks like a punch. How about the engraving?
Very optimistic!
Regards
Zolotnik

drillo
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby drillo » Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:16 pm

As I wrote, I am not an expert.
But my initial idea is close to what Dad wrote.
Honestly I thought the quality was not enough to be a Faberge, but I also thought the object was not a modern production or a modern fake.
My idea was that it possibly was a late XIX original piece and then the Faberge mark was added later. the item was then gilt with vermeil plus the enamelled monogramm was added to make it look more Faberge. Probably the vermeil was added also for a better overall look of the marks...
Would this make sense for you?

AG2012
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Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby AG2012 » Mon Aug 13, 2012 1:22 pm

It was a nice, common piece of silver, I doubt it was completely newly made — too demanding task — easier to ruin what was at hand.

drillo
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby drillo » Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:25 pm

:-)

drillo
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Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby drillo » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:09 am

Better image with the punches on handle

Image

Dad
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Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Dad » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:15 pm

drillo wrote:Better image with the punches on handle

Image



It is very correct punch (look my last message :
Dad wrote:Hi, All.

I think, it's original tea glass holder. But it's not "Faberge". It's made by Antip Kuzmitchev's factory (punch "AK") in 1882-1899. Look the punches on the handle and bottom edge(юбка)........

drillo
Posts: 28
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby drillo » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:56 pm

Tks for confirming, Dad!

Zolotnik
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Location: Germany

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Zolotnik » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:47 pm

Hi all -
the OP is stubborn and unreasonable - some "experts" can not read but spread some false informations.

drillo - please concentrate and read attentive what I write now and maybe reread what was written already!
The marks on your podstakannik are fake-phantasy-lookalike-phony in other words:false = not original
Dad tells you that everything is OK, authentic and as it should be (exept the Fabergé joke + enamel gimmick). He also tells you that the maker is: Kuzmitschev Antip Ivanowitsch. As we all he uses some sources to know who is who. In this sources most of the marks and names of the silversmiths who worked in a certain town are listed. Now you compare the mark of your object with the marks in the list. If one mark is identic with the shown ones and the timetable is correct (a smith working 1761 can not make an object assayed 1908 - do you understand?) than you have your man. As we have learned in the meantime every detail counts: Cyrillic or Latin letters, dots between the letters, form of the cartouche around the letters etc.
Here is the mark of Kuzmitschev (over the years he had 4 different marks)

Image
Image
Image

Now take a closer look at the marks: do you see any dot between the letter A and the letter K? If you see no dot than there is no dot. Now look at the punch on the handle of your object: there is a dot between the letter A and the letter K. In Moscow existed never a silversmith A.K Conclusion: it is not Kuzmitschev - and your podstakannik was made by someone who did not exist.
I know, all this facts are not relevant for you (and others) - its a nice object and since dekades in the family. Fake? No way! Look at the quality, no dings or dents...

This was my last try - I give up.

Regards
Zolotnik

Dad
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Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Dad » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:32 am

Hi.

Zolotnik. I don't want to argue. On these photos I drew the conclusion. Glass holder is original. It is made in 1882-1899. The maker is AK. Faberge + gold etc is modern work. If you don't like Kuzmichev, Ivanov writes about 62 masters of the having brand AK. I called the most known.

Please, it is not necessary to give such priority to a dot. Workshops worked a long time. Every year registered punch. There could be variants. Samples didn't remain. (Or you want to look still for mistakes at Postnikova?)))

Best Reg..

Zolotnik
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Location: Germany

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:46 am

Hello Dad-

я ценю Ваше специальное знание! Но мы должны были работать против FAKES они появляются всюду!
С лучшими приветами
Zolotnik

Dad
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Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Dad » Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:58 am

Zolotnik wrote:Hello Dad-

я ценю Ваше специальное знание! Но мы должны были работать против FAKES они появляются всюду!
С лучшими приветами
Zolotnik


Не возражаю. Но не огульно. Предлагаю даже создать тему с образцами современных фальшклейм, что-то их много развелось и они все совершенствуются.))

Zolotnik
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Location: Germany

Re: Silver vermeil Tea Glass Holder - Faberge?

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:20 am

Hello Dad -

Я согласен!
С наилучшими пожеланиями
Золотник



Sorry admin! But it is the Russian forum......:-)


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