Khlebnikov spoon???
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Hi Maria -
I do not know how much you know about Russian silver, the used marks and the famous firm Khlebnikov. A quick introduction:
KHLEBNIKOV. One of the more important firms of silversmiths in Russia, active in Moscow from 1871 on. Exhibited at the World Exhibition in Vienna in 1873. Enamel objects of very high quality in all techniques, often cloisonneé, champlevé and plique-à - jour side by side in the same piece. Colours: pastel tones. also violet, green, yellow.
Now to your spoon:
1) the shown assay master does not exist in Moscow (phantasy)
2) the shown marks does not look like they should (phantasy)
3) the shown quality/pattern and workmanship is very poor (phantasy)
Facit: Fake
Regards
Zolotnik
I do not know how much you know about Russian silver, the used marks and the famous firm Khlebnikov. A quick introduction:
KHLEBNIKOV. One of the more important firms of silversmiths in Russia, active in Moscow from 1871 on. Exhibited at the World Exhibition in Vienna in 1873. Enamel objects of very high quality in all techniques, often cloisonneé, champlevé and plique-à - jour side by side in the same piece. Colours: pastel tones. also violet, green, yellow.
Now to your spoon:
1) the shown assay master does not exist in Moscow (phantasy)
2) the shown marks does not look like they should (phantasy)
3) the shown quality/pattern and workmanship is very poor (phantasy)
Facit: Fake
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Dear Zolotnik, According P.-L. (Page 230), Ivan Khlebnikov has since 1870 a company in Moscow. This spoon dated 1877th So this position is correct.
best regards
Maria
best regards
Maria
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Sorry! I misunderstood you. Assay Meister -these are shown in P.-L. Page 205 (of unknown masters in Moscow from 1872 to 1881).
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
I respect your opinion, dear Zolotnik. I'm probably to blame for the fact that given enough pictures. here's another.
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r550/leo682/7.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r550/leo682/8.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here are other spoon of Khlebnikov
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r550/leo682/7.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://i1171.photobucket.com/albums/r550/leo682/8.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Here are other spoon of Khlebnikov
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Hmmmmm...some minor doubts..., but anyway, FYI! The assayer is not unknown. He is Ivan Jestimovitsh Konstantinov. His working period in Moscow was 1876-1882 unless otherwise proved (not 1872-1881).
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Sorry forgot to ask. Kindly show some better and bigger close ups of the marks only.
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Thank you for the information. I found this at Postnikova hallmark. Where is your information?
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Attention! The spoon is hallmarked from Supplier of the Court of the Grand Duke :Qrt.S wrote:Sorry forgot to ask. Kindly show some better and bigger close ups of the marks only.
1872 - Company - Supplier of the Court of the Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolaevich.
1877 - Company - Supplier of Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
FYI:Zolotnik wrote:Hi Maria -
I do not know how much you know about Russian silver, the used marks and the famous firm Khlebnikov. A quick introduction:
KHLEBNIKOV. One of the more important firms of silversmiths in Russia, active in Moscow from 1871 on. Exhibited at the World Exhibition in Vienna in 1873. Enamel objects of very high quality in all techniques, often cloisonneé, champlevé and plique-à - jour side by side in the same piece. Colours: pastel tones. also violet, green, yellow.
Now to your spoon:
1) the shown assay master does not exist in Moscow (phantasy)
2) the shown marks does not look like they should (phantasy)
3) the shown quality/pattern and workmanship is very poor (phantasy)
Facit: Fake
Regards
Zolotnik
http://www.russian-antique.net/antiq/in ... 6-10-14-37" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Attention! The spoon is hallmarked from Supplier of the Court of the Grand Duke :Maria78 wrote:Qrt.S wrote:Sorry forgot to ask. Kindly show some better and bigger close ups of the marks only.
1872 - Company - Supplier of the Court of the Grand Duke Konstantin Nikolaevich.
1877 - Company - Supplier of Grand Duke Vladimir Alexandrovich
OK, thanks for the better photo, but what is your point with the above stated and the link?
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Zolotnik says that " the shown marks does not look like they should (phantasy)". On this link kan you look, that is the hallmark of my spoon identical to original.Qrt.S wrote:
OK, thanks for the better photo, but what is your point with the above stated and the link?
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Hi, Qrt.SQrt.S wrote:Hmmmmm...some minor doubts..., but anyway, FYI! The assayer is not unknown. He is Ivan Jestimovitsh Konstantinov. His working period in Moscow was 1876-1882 unless otherwise proved (not 1872-1881).
I beg your pardon.)) Ivan Efimovich Konstantinov (his father's name Efim) 1874-1882
Best Reg.
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Hello Maria,
Welcome to the forum. You say you bought the spoons as original Khlebnikov but have you any doubts or are you testing our contributors? Why are you in doubt? You know where you bought the ‘original Khlebnikov’s' and how much you paid for those, could you please enlighten us with some documentation. Thanks for your cooperation.
Oel.
Welcome to the forum. You say you bought the spoons as original Khlebnikov but have you any doubts or are you testing our contributors? Why are you in doubt? You know where you bought the ‘original Khlebnikov’s' and how much you paid for those, could you please enlighten us with some documentation. Thanks for your cooperation.
Oel.
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Hi Maria 78 -
sorry for the error about the assay master - did not look close enough - it is Konstantinov, Ivan Jefimowitsch, in my sources 1874-1882 on duty in Moscow.
In my opinion the spoon and the box are fakes! Most of the from you shown Khlebnikov marks are fake marks. One "expert" copy from another "expert", the reason: no original and authentic object at hand.
I enclose some photos of Khlebnikov spoons and a box - maybe you see the difference in quality..
only the enamel spoon is from Khlebnikov
If you ask how to know if it is a fake - my standard answer:
I've never understood the urge to "learn" about fakes. It's a waste of time. Spend that energy learning about the real thing and you'll know the fakes when you see them because they won't look like the real thing. No matter how much you "learn" about fakes, you'll never know everything about them so it's literally an all-consuming time-suck that has no value since every day new fakes hit the market.
Regards
Zolotnik
sorry for the error about the assay master - did not look close enough - it is Konstantinov, Ivan Jefimowitsch, in my sources 1874-1882 on duty in Moscow.
In my opinion the spoon and the box are fakes! Most of the from you shown Khlebnikov marks are fake marks. One "expert" copy from another "expert", the reason: no original and authentic object at hand.
I enclose some photos of Khlebnikov spoons and a box - maybe you see the difference in quality..
only the enamel spoon is from Khlebnikov
If you ask how to know if it is a fake - my standard answer:
I've never understood the urge to "learn" about fakes. It's a waste of time. Spend that energy learning about the real thing and you'll know the fakes when you see them because they won't look like the real thing. No matter how much you "learn" about fakes, you'll never know everything about them so it's literally an all-consuming time-suck that has no value since every day new fakes hit the market.
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Correct Dad, my mistake, a typo. I meant to write Jefimovitsh or in English actually Yefimovich but my fingers slipped ;-))). Anyway, do we agree that Cyrillic E is Ye or in my language Je. Transliteration problems as often with Russian names/letters.
The reason for the difference in the working period is that different sources give different years. Some times it is difficult to know what are the correct years (I don't always know for sure).
The reason for the difference in the working period is that different sources give different years. Some times it is difficult to know what are the correct years (I don't always know for sure).
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Maria78
Please, do not think that what you might find on internet would be the absolute and only truth. You must check from other sources too. Internet is the last to believe. You must know that anybody can put anything in internet, fakers included.
Please, do not think that what you might find on internet would be the absolute and only truth. You must check from other sources too. Internet is the last to believe. You must know that anybody can put anything in internet, fakers included.
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Hi Qrt.S -
we both get older and older (not wiser!) - instead of "Dad" you can call me Grand-Dad!
Regards
Zolotnik
we both get older and older (not wiser!) - instead of "Dad" you can call me Grand-Dad!
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Hi Maria78 -
please have a look at the sloppy details (open ends) and unsymetric composition. Something nobody would expect or accept from Khlebnikov!
See the big difference? If you once had held an authentic spoon from Khlebnikov in your hands - this one would go in the trash bin!
Regards
Zolotnik
please have a look at the sloppy details (open ends) and unsymetric composition. Something nobody would expect or accept from Khlebnikov!
See the big difference? If you once had held an authentic spoon from Khlebnikov in your hands - this one would go in the trash bin!
Regards
Zolotnik
Re: Khlebnikov spoon???
Why are ``cells`` not closed everywhere and the enamel spills into adjacent cells? Red enamel is dull in appearance and spotted with dark areas. Translucent red enamel is the challenge, and they had better avoided it. Even Faberge experimented with it for years. Not many have solved the problem (A,Michelsen in Denmark e.g.). Are we sure it is twisted wire the cells are made of? When cloisonné or champleve is posted we would really like good close — ups.