Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
cookj392
Posts: 8
Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:45 pm

Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby cookj392 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 1:01 pm

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee378/cookj392/

Hello Zolotnik, Piette, Dad, Qrt.S and Juke,

Sorry took so long to reply to last posts. I have endeavoured to obtain some extra photos but my digi camera super macro is not brilliant. I have include full size, weight is approx 100gm and length 21.5 cm. I borrowed a 'loupe' from a friend (30x) and as far as I can see there is no 'dot' between the first 2 letters of name. If you enlarge to 'full screen' I think you will probably agree.
From my own research about assay marks, I think it would be Andrei Kovalaskiy but am not sure. The monogram appears to be SF in a 'gothic' style.
I am most grateful to you all for your efforts. cookj392

Qrt.S
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:17 pm

No dot between the two first letters?? Sorry, I don't follow you, what do you mean with this dot?

It is under no circumstances Andrei Kovalskij. He marked 1821-1856. Your spoon is marked 1880. Calculate the assayer's age and you understand what I mean. When you became an assayer your age was about 30 years. Your AK is a by name unknown assayer in Moscow. 1879-1883. This, however, not the main point, which is that there are strange ambiguities with your spoon....as you must have noticed yourself reading the posts.

cookj392
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby cookj392 » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:24 pm

Hi I was referring to Zolotnik's last post asking for more detail and asking about a dot or full stop between N and O in hallmark. This would appear to help pin down the maker as Ovchinnikov?

Qrt.S
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Qrt.S » Fri Jan 06, 2012 2:38 pm

Ovtshinnikov had several different marks. He marked both with and without a dot after П. Dot or not does not prove anything in this case.

Zolotnik
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Zolotnik » Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:32 pm

Hi -
Let me summarize:
The firm of Ovtschinnikov was after Fabergé the second best address in Russia, best known for the highest quality and workmanship. His outstanding different enamels were worldwide known and national and international honoured by many prizes.

And than there is this simple, undekorated plump spoon, common European pattern without the typical Russian bent handle end, Latin monogram in Gothik style (not used in Russia) and a fat and much too large firmstamp with unclear letters. Please see an original mark and take notice of the proportions.

Image

In spite of the colourful story - I call your spoon a fake!

Regards
Zolotnik

asti
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby asti » Fri Jan 06, 2012 7:04 pm

hi all,

Yes, this time Zolotnik is absolutely right. It's a typical Western Europeean pattern...

regards,
Asti

Juke
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Juke » Sat Jan 07, 2012 6:18 am

Hi!

As we all know the noble russians, especially in the St.Petersburg had also an affection towards the western style. We see this in all silver be it tea sets, bread/fruit baskets, candlesticks etc. made in russia during this period. The in addtion to this the russian style was developed in addition during the second half of 19th century but they lived side by side.

I am not a spoon collector so my knowledge can be limited on this area. However I have to say that I don't see a difference in the spoon compared to other spoons made in Russia during this period. Here are examples of other spoons made by Fabergé, Grachev and the Ovtschinnikov. You can always say that these are not authentic but the one which is a drawing of the Fabergé spoon is from the catalog shown on this site. As said I don't see any difference in the pattern which I believe is called the fiddle pattern which one of the classical ones. I have also other spoons with the same pattern and made by other russian masters. Also I have seen numerous engravings with western name initials on russian spoons and I don't see it a fact for saying something not authentic based on it. There is a difference if the there is writing on the item which can often be in russia.

Fabergé:
Image

Gratchev:
Image

Ovtschinnikov:
Image

If you Zolotnik have the possibility to enlarge the Ovtschinnikov mark shown by you it would be helpful to compare them. It seems that the double headed eagle is of about the same size in your picture meaning quite big.

Zolotnik you have a tremendous knowledge on russian silver and I agree otherwise with your text but sorry as I am not of the same opinion on the authenticity but we can agree to disagree on this.

Regards,
Juke

cookj392
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby cookj392 » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:12 am

http://s1224.photobucket.com/albums/ee378/cookj392/

Hi Juke & Zolotnik there is another item - cake/pastry server pictures included which may add to your debate or be off in another direction. This has Russian marks but cannot identify initials G E for maker.

Zolotnik
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Zolotnik » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:24 am

Hi Juke -
I absolutely agree with what you wrote!
Maybe I am a little spoiled by the many objects I see on dayly basis - 90% fakes. Whenever I see this big firmlogos of famous firms...prominently struck on the middle of an object...Gothik lettering....
Just my opinion - but as we all know: there is always an exeption. Personally I would not like this spoon.
Happy spoon hunting!

Image

Regards
Zolotnik

Zolotnik
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Zolotnik » Sat Jan 07, 2012 7:38 am

Hi cookj392 -
you should start a new thread with a new question!

Image

Your cake server is not Russian, it is Latvian (Baltic) from Riga under Russian rule.
Assay master: Ludwik Suk 1844-1847 and 1856-1884
Master/Maker: Ehmke, Georg Heinrich 1849-1880

Regards
Zolotnik

Dad
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Dad » Sat Jan 07, 2012 2:04 pm

Zolotnik wrote:Hi cookj392 -
you should start a new thread with a new question!

Image

Your cake server is not Russian, it is Latvian (Baltic) from Riga under Russian rule.
Assay master: Ludwik Suk 1844-1847 and 1856-1884
Master/Maker: Ehmke, Georg Heinrich 1849-1880

Regards
Zolotnik


Hi, Zolotnik

Please, tell me: Ehmke, Georg Heinrich (1849-1880) and Ehmke, Johann Heinrich (1843-1880) ( viewtopic.php?t=19553 ) is brothers?

Zolotnik
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Zolotnik » Sat Jan 07, 2012 4:46 pm

Hi Dad -
I do not know if Ehmke, Georg Heinrich and Ehmke, Johann Heinrich has been brothers. It could be possible.
Ehmke, Johan Heinrich * 1814 in Riga, +1880
Ehmke, Georg Heinrich * ? + ? Amtmeister since 1849, his last stamp is known from 1880

Source: Annelore Leistikow, Baltisches Silber, page 315

Regards
Zolotnik

cookj392
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Joined: Fri Dec 30, 2011 2:45 pm

Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby cookj392 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 1:15 pm

Thank you all for your help in trying to decide the authenticity of this spoon. I believe the provenance to be very genuine since it has been in my wife's family for about 80 years minimum, so if it is a copy or fake presumably this would have been manufactured in Russia??
Regards to all

Larsbear
Posts: 6
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:07 pm

Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Larsbear » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:13 pm

Ummm... The spoon in the first photo is clearly English Silver, brite-cut Sterling, date mark for 1796 (A) king George's head facing right. Lion Passant for Sterling. The blurry mark on the far left is the maker's mark.

Larsbear
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Larsbear » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:17 pm

In fact, if I squint, it looks like the maker is Peter, Ann & William Bateman? P.A & W. B ?

dognose
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby dognose » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:34 pm

Yup, that's one of the problems you get when you don't embed the image, the originals wander off and are often replaced with an image of a cat, or something else!

(Welcome to the Forum Larsbear)

Trev.

Larsbear
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Re: Imperial Court Serving Spoon?

Postby Larsbear » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:46 pm

Ah I see. I WAS confused why everyone was discussing Russian Silver.


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