STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
ARGENTUM49
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STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by ARGENTUM49 »

I have reviewed my camera’s options and now I can take close up pics to share them with you. I am glad it is in January 1st.
Stirrup cup in the form of a dog. Gilded interior.St.Peterburg 1861 by Samuel Arndt (born 1812 - died 1890). Workshop registered in 1849.
Assayer: Alexandar Nikolaveich Mitin (1842 — 1877). Seven and half cm. high. I could not post more than two pics (including that with hallmarks) and wanted this one with close up details; the lower part is simply a circular hollow gilded vessel.
An auction house in Geneva claims that he trained several masters who later worked for Faberge. Several stirrup cups by Samuel Arndt were sold at Sotheby’s London (boar, deer, rabbit, and horse) about 20 years ago, one in Geneva. It is most probable that he trained Julius Rappaport, too, who made similar animal figures in his workshop at Ekaterinskii Canal and also for Faberge. Still, they could not match their master - animal figures by Samuel Arndt are better executed than those made by his followers trained in his workshop. There is no doubt that nobody in Europe has ever made so beautiful animals either in silver or bronze - those made by Samuel Arndt are almost alive, just look at dog’s eyes and his fur. He used a very complicated technique known as lost-wax casting, called by the French name of ``cire perdue``. It is the process by which a bronze or silver sculpture is cast from an artist's sculpture.This means that there was a Russian sculptor who made it and S.Arndt did the casting. Unfortunately, we do not know his name so far. Another point: stirrup cups made in UK and elsewhere can be held in hand only when drinking from the saddle - a ceremony before the hunting practiced by the nobility. Those made by S.Arndt can stand upright because they were so designed to have three supporting points: two ears and the tip of the snout.

Ivan

Image

Image
Postnikov
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Postnikov »

Hi ARGENTUM49 -
I do not know from where you get your Photos - are you sure that you are allowed to post photos which don´t belong to you?
What is the purpose to post such photos?
Do you think your descriptions give sense?
Do you have any serious literature to harden your opinion or is the text and photos just copied nonsens from certain catalogues or sites?
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Regards
Postnikov
oel
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by oel »

Hi,

The assay mark looks not correct to me, perhaps fake?

Regards,

Oel
Qrt.S
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Qrt.S »

What is your opinion ARGENTUM49 regarding the assayer's and maker's marks. Who are they?
ARGENTUM49
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by ARGENTUM49 »

My dear Postnikov,
There is no need to insult me any more at my age. I took the pics of S.Arndt`s dog this afternoon. I have it for more than 15 years. The data about Julius Rappaport were given by Faberge`s grand-grand daughter Tatiana Faberge who lives in Switzerland and her book was published in Finland in the memory of the Finnish masters who worked for Faberge.You have suggested to me impolitely ``to do my homework``.Well do some ``homework`` yourself, because there is no doubt that at least some of Faberge masters were trained by S.Arndt, as clearly seen from the pictures I posted. In short, THE STIRRUP CUP ``DOG`` IS MINE.
I wanted to contribute with many interesting and rare Russian silver of historical importance and superb craftsmanship: e.g. Kovsh by Sazikov presented by Count Dolgorukov in 1879 to Duke Nicolas, later the King of Montenegro. In short THE KOVSH IS ALSO MINE.
Then, jewelry and silver trompe-l'Å“il jewelry boxes presented to daughters of King Nicolas I of Montenegro by their husbands Grand Duke Nicholas of Russia to Anastasia "Stana" of Montenegro and to Militza of Montenegro by Grand Duke Peter of Russia. Those are exquisite Imperial items given by Russian to Montenegro royalty and, in short THEY BELONG TO ME NOT TO INTERNET, and they are not like those stupid trompe-l'Å“il cigar boxes engraved to resamble Havana cigar boxes with imperial duty bands.
I also wanted to contribute with my Russian regimental badges (not for the sake of their value I know everything about it, but to discuss the way they were enameled(translucent enamel needs lower temperatures, opaque is heated to over 800 degrees. How did they manage to execute both in one single firing process? Did you know what enamel is the most difficult to make? Translucent red! Faberge had problems with this color, etc, etc.
I started today because I did not know how to use close-up options on my camera.
It is too late for this now.
I have met so many kind and decent people during many years of cooperating in other fields, as I mentioned when introducing myself (website about Loetz glass). Fortunately,they come either from USA and UK and their only connection with Eastern Europe and Russia are fakes. If we find something interesting ON INTERNET worth investigating we discuss it for the sake of better understanding the subject (that was the idea with brass plated cigarette case and its suspicious wear and color — I have never seen one and wanted an opinion on the subject).Or this forum is only to boast with what we have.
Besides, I was trained at The Hospital For Sick Children in Great Ormond Street, London, UK, for a long time and I am not accustomed to impolite relations and arrogance. All said, you demonstrated open hostility to me from the very moment I signed again, although I was the member of this website at least ten years before you. Your arrogance, your open hostility, your way to address elderly people with e.g. ``do your homework``timewaster ``etc. cannot be tolerated any more and I have decided not to participate in this forum any more. Although, I regret because there was a possibility both to learn something, to meet decent people and share dilemmas with them. I do hope you will be satisfied. There is no need to waste time any more, have a prosperous future and all the best to you and your family. God bless you all. The last but not the least, I apologize to other members and to Trev. You will find the way to explain that I was a ``timewaster``, they will decide on their own when they read this explanation.
ARGENTUM49
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by ARGENTUM49 »

It is not a fake. I bought it from a colleague of mine whose father was a rich doctor in Russia. He fled from Odessa at the last moment before the communist have invaded the city. He saved his family and several suitcases with their valuables because they did not want to live with the animals. Do not take care of the hallmarks, one cannot fake thing like this one. That is the reason I posted high resolution enlarged pic to see details. Besides, the bottom of the drinking vessel is circular and hallmarks are hammered into silver. One cannot expect perfect hallmarks on circular surface of limited width. If they were perfect it would be suspicious. As I told only several stirrup cups have emerged on the world market within the last 25 years, all were different animals. I doubt that more than a dozen sets were made, because ``lost wax`` casting destroys mold after several castings. The question is if more than a few figures could be cast with the molds they had at the time. When you hold it in your hands, you see that it is genuine. The most important - it has a provenance. I knoe its origin Dr Gleb Neljdihin from Odessa, brought to my country in 1920 (They spent some time in Istambul before settling here).
Ask Postnikov to search on Internet or elsewhere for a similar piece. He should know better.

God bless you all !
piette
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by piette »

ARGENTUM49 wrote:I also wanted to contribute with my Russian regimental badges (not for the sake of their value I know everything about it, but to discuss the way they were enameled(translucent enamel needs lower temperatures, opaque is heated to over 800 degrees. How did they manage to execute both in one single firing process? Did you know what enamel is the most difficult to make? Translucent red! Faberge had problems with this color, etc, etc.
Hi Argentum49,
When different colours of enamel are used on an object they require to be fired at different temperatures. As far as I am aware, this was not done in one firing. The first colour with the highest firing temperature would be added first and fired. Then the next highest temperature colour would be added and fired and so on and so on until all the colours had been applied.

Fabergé was known for his brilliant enamel colours, many of which I believe he created himself. His enamelling was some of the best (if not the best) around.

If you have all of these wonderful items, it would be appreciated if you would stay around. We would love to see the items - this forum is here for the appreciation of Silver and to learn about it. If you have knowledge about the topic - share it!

Regards,
Piette
ARGENTUM49
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by ARGENTUM49 »

Dear Piette,
You are hundred percent right about enameling. The first firing is for the color that melts at the highest temperature, followed in the descending order with different colors that melt at lower temperatures. Fortunately, a have a friend from Denmark whose father worked in A. Michelsen workshop. He remembers well that they manipulated the temperature to avoid multiple firing, but it was very difficult and only possible with covering the color supposed to remain translucent with some mixture of clay to protect it to be heated further and the same unprotected color when heated to about 800 degrees C became opaque. As a hobby, I worked with a jeweler, a friend of mine, mentioned when I introduced myself. We did the same trick when soldering gold; there is a substance jewelers have in their workshops to cover stones or parts they want to protect from heat. It really works. By the way, it is a shame what happened both to A. Michelsen and Georg Jensen.First, G.Jensen took over A. Michelsen workshop and continued his production (I have collected their Christmas spoons — they are a real beauty — the tradition started in 1910 and when I asked a friend of mine for the latest spoon i.e. 2010 he told me that Georg Jensen decided to discontinue the production after 100 years. Georg Jensen makes silver in Italy now, fortunately, I can tell the difference thanks to my Danish connection.
I am sorry but I do not want to be abused at my age any more. If any of you want to stay in touch with me, please send a private message and we can communicate directly — I will let you know my email address. Regards,
Ivan
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by oel »

Hi Argentum49,

You create a lot of smoke; you go from left to right, showing silver plate with Russian silver hallmarks.A rare stirrup cup with an other smoke screen and dubious hallmarks. An obvious fact, you have connections to auction sites. You tell great story’s, however the items you have showed and there visible marks, we can call a little dubious.
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Happy New Year.

Regards,

Oel
Postnikov
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Postnikov »

Hi ARGENTUM49 -
as I am a little bit older than you it is permitted to tell you to do your homework. These"objects" are absolute unknown to the public or in the relevant literature, the shown marks are caricatures. In my country younger people always accept recommendations from elder persons - because they have more experience or knowledge.
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There is so much to learn - today you learned how to use the macro options of your camera - what will you learn tomorrow?

Get well soon and all the best
Postnikov
Postnikov
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Postnikov »

Hi all -

2 original stirrup cups by Samuel Arndt

Image

Image

his mark

Image

Regards
Postnikov
Qrt.S
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Qrt.S »

Here is another "teenager" older than you dear Ivan. I also find the marks on the stirrup cup as Oel does more than dubious. Mind my asking, but what did you want to know about the stirrup, what was your question?
Anyway, it is against the rules to link to auction houses' sites, but on a very well known 4 colored auction house's site is shown and for sale a yellow enameled powder box. In the text it is stated that this FABERGÉ box is marked with H.W which is the famous Henrik Wigström's mark. In addition it is hallmarked with a kokoshnik. I strongly advise you to revise your statement about its genuineness.

Ivan, you might think that your age affects on the attendants on these Russian sites. That is not the case because many of them are not born yesterday and some even older than you as you have probably already noticed. Using your own words, pay some respect...I have nothing against you put kindly stop pulling my leg.

Seasons Greetings

Qrt.S
ARGENTUM49
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by ARGENTUM49 »

Image

To Qrt.S:
1. To research who was trained by Samuel Arndt in his workshop and later joined Faberge?
2.Henrik Wigström was supposed to have kokoshnik hallmark because he took over Perkhin`s worksop in 1903 when Perkhin died. Second, fake hallmarks cannot be punched over Guilloché enamel. Henrik Wigström made silver in his own workshop after Perkhin` s death and I leave to snobs to cherish his work only if retailed by Faberge. The same applies to artel No 6 — they supplied Faberge with their silver, as well as many of his contractors. Therefore, I consider every piece made by HW as Faberge, and I belevolently helped the seller.

To Postnikov:
1. The hallmarks on Samuel Arndt`s dog may look like caricatures to you. The object has a provenance; believe it or not, the doctor fled from Russia with this stirrup cup and brought it over here in 1920. If flyer press was used to punch flatware, how do you expect to hallmark a circular rim? By hand hammering, of course, applying less striking force unless you want the rim damaged.
2. I will not ``pollute`` the forum with my `` treasures`` with Montenegro Royalty. My family is directly linked to some of the highest officials and ministers at the court of Nicolas I. Count Dolgorukov presented that kovsh to my ancestor Duke Iliya Plamenac when he was appointed the Minister of war. There is historical written evidence about his second visit, very well known to the members of my family; During Count Dolgorukov`s first visit to Montenegro in 1871 they drank a lot of wine. When Count Dolgorukov returned back several years later he remembered that and ordered the kovsh from Sazikov, asking him to engrave the inscription: ВОЕВОДОЮ БЫТЬ НЕ БЕЗЪ МЕДУ ЖИТЬ (stay the Duke but enjoy the drink — as far as I can tell because letters are in old Slavic) to mock my ancestor, referring to his affection to good wine, although the Russian proverb is about ``Медовуха`` a light alcoholic drink with honey added.But who would bother with small Montenegro history? We were not an imperial power. I do not sell things on any commercial site, particularly not those linked to my family. They were not bought from sellers, or from greedy traders who supply `` new money`` snobs. Did you suspect I wanted your opinions as references to support my listings elsewhere? This is nonsense. I would not sell those items for a fortune — we are too proud to change them for any currency offered by the commons.
And last but not the least, why do you communicate with usernames only?

As a token of my deepest regret, please accept my sincere apologies and this picture of gold, diamonds and blue sapphires bracelet given to Queen Milena of Montenegro at the opening of the first railway in the Balkans (to connect the port of Bari in the Adriatic coast — therefore the anchor commemorating the event). Jewelty is not discussed here, you know better who made it for the Royalty.

This is final, I will not ``pollute`` your forum any more and you will not hear from me any more.
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by piette »

ARGENTUM49 wrote: 2.Henrik Wigström was supposed to have kokoshnik hallmark because he took over Perkhin`s worksop in 1903 when Perkhin died. Second, fake hallmarks cannot be punched over Guilloché enamel. Henrik Wigström made silver in his own workshop after Perkhin` s death and I leave to snobs to cherish his work only if retailed by Faberge. The same applies to artel No 6 — they supplied Faberge with their silver, as well as many of his contractors. Therefore, I consider every piece made by HW as Faberge, and I belevolently helped the seller.
Hi Argentum49,
I don't undertand how this is helping the seller. It is only causing problems - when the buyer gets their item and shows it to a local 'expert' the expert will tell him/her that it has nothing to do with Fabergé and then the seller is in trouble!
There is no evidence to show that the Sixth Moscow Artel ever worked with Fabergé or supplied him. Are there any objects bearing both 6MA and ФАБЕРЖЕ or К.Ф marks......? If you know of any, please show us. We have not seen any.
Regards,
Piette
Qrt.S
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Qrt.S »

Firstly
This is a waste of time, but one more last time. Henrik Wigström made quality and I mean QAULITY. The powder box is far from his level. In addition, IF it would be genuine, it would be worth a fortune. Moreover, nobody has said that fake hallmarks are punched on a "genuine" box made by Wigström. The whole box is spurious not only the hallmarks. It seems to me that you don't even know what is significant for a real kokoshnik hallmark. In addition, the marks on an enameled object are punched before the enameling not after.
Secondly
The 6th artel was one of the most famous ones in Russia and a court supplier. But that doesn't mean that they had anything to do with Fabergé. What is the source for the information of cooperation with Fabergé?
Thirdly
You cannot be serious in saying than "...Therefore, I consider every piece made by HW as Faberge." I you really are, and that is the only criteria, I have nothing more to say.
Postnikov
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Postnikov »

Hi ARGENTUM49 - or should I say Excellence (your famous family background makes me proud of corresponding with you...)

First I do not think that this is your last post - you are too righteous and a too big attention Queen.
Second I do not understand why I should not use a pseudo name - there is no difference between Postnikov or ARGENTUM49 - only that you state your profession - can I have a look at your passport
and your school reports, photoraphed together with a newspaper with the actual date to verify your real existence? You sure do not want to be called an impostor. By the way - I am the son of the Imperator of China - but now only you and I know that! It is strictly confidential and nobody on the board knows it....

Back to your stories:
6th Artel (Moscow) does not work for Fabergé as far as I know. 6th Artel (St. Petersburg) does not exist - so which Artel you speak of? Provenance is not what somebody tells you. Provenance is something you can proof with documents and photos.

There were several very important exhibitions in Europe, dealing with the work of Fabergé. All the Royal houses and all collectors worldwide gave their treasures, many of them unseen until today.to this exhibitions - but I missed your treasures, though you had all the provenances necessary to convience the experts. As one of the remarkable sons of Montenegro with this intimate knowledge of " who get what from whome at what occasion, made by which artist". You could have necessitate the experts and historians to rewrite the history of Russian silver! What an opportunity you let slip away. So many things and facts only you know stay now in the dark for ever.

Regards (bowing respectfuly backward away)
Postnikov
ARGENTUM49
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by ARGENTUM49 »

Image

Image

КОНСТАНТИН ИЛЛАРИОНОВИЧ СКВОРЦОВ (Moscow 1899 - 1908)

It was suposed to be the last time I contact this forum, but you have insulted me again in a common way : `Regards (bowing respectfully backward away) Postnikov`
Unfortunately, to do that, we need something like this, but the blacksmith forges the destiny to him who is to be married.It is too late for that, isn’t it ? Only a stupid dispute between two old people. Regretfully,

Ivan

P.S. Of course, it is another fake or picture taken from internet. Except for the fact that I stubbornly searched for it in my boxes the whole afternoon, also being a sign of getting old, passionless and having nothing better to do, I admit. Young people would laugh at both of us! Unfortunately, I am aware of that.
Postnikov
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Postnikov »

Hi ARGENTUM49 -

Even if we do not come into accord in certain things - at least we have one thing we love both: Russian Silver (authentic)!

Who had thought that Skvortsov one day will connect us old farts (common as I am again) ?

Image Matchboxholder

Image Napkinring

Image Cigarette case

Regards and peace
Postnikov
ARGENTUM49
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by ARGENTUM49 »

Image

I do feel much better now! It was stupid of me to start the dispute the first day I met you all. I did not know how to behave within the new circle. Every circle has its rules. We are all old enough to forget about it. I admit I have a lot to learn, because Russian silver was not my only concern in antiques. I hope that in our religion the atonement still brings forgiveness of sins, doesn’t it? By the way, I haven`t bought any Russian silver for about 20 years. All I have is either left from my grandfather, my mother-in-law and I bought several pieces before the fall of Berlin wall. Then, there was the war over here, my only son was almost killed although he was drafted against his will. At the time when I started collecting silver my primary concern was German silver. It was faked then — not only Hanau early 20th century Augsburg and Nuernberg. I collected badges as a boy and I am still amazed that such enameled cheap badges were made in Poland almost half a century ago. But later they exploited the technique and the first fakes were enameled silver icons pendants with faked Russian hallmarks. Then, everything went downhill. I am just afraid to buy anything any more and besides, at my age I feel it useless, or it is only my depression I suffer from. You are right about the provenance — everything brought to our limited market comes from ``an old family``. Still, I cherish the heritage saved from Montenegro (letters written by King Nicolas, several pieces of silver and jewelry — honestly I did not make up stories about it — that is all I have). All medals and orders of the highest ranks were either stolen or taken abroad and sold at auctions).The last piece I bought from a colleague of mine was that stirrup cup and the badge his father received when graduated at St.Petersburg University (you know it — white rhomboid with the blue cross). It was 20 years ago. He committed suicide later; I think it had something to do with their uncertain destiny when his family left Odessa.
I have just sent to Tom the Sazikov hallmark to the email address he gave but it was not delivered by Yahoo.com
You can review it and send it to him to post it in maker’s marks if you find it worth including.
I could not take better pictures; anyway the only clearly visible parts are handwritten Sazikov and St.Petersburg city hallmark. The imperial eagle above, as commonly seen, is a bit blurred, as well as the man’s profile, facing left (a mystery to me).

In short:
Sazikov hallmark (St Petersburg branch).
Full name in handwriting Сазиковь
Unknown Assayer I.E. (ИЕ) 1870 - 1891
(Year 1879)
Upper hallmark: Imperial Eagle
Lower hallmark: looks like Alexander II in profile????? (Alexander II 1855-1881) - no better resolution possible! (You will decide about it)
Hallmarks are on kovsh.

Have a good night!
Иван Миловић
Postnikov
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Re: STIRRUP CUP BY SAMUEL ARNDT

Post by Postnikov »

Hi ARGENTUM49 -

The shown marks are completely faked. If you scroll down some pages, there is a larger contribution of a faked box of Sazikov with the same marks.
Please understand me right - I really do not want to patronize you - but before you buy something Russian in the future - ask the board if it is authentic. As you might know already - there are more fakes than real objects on the market. Keep your money and do not support swindlers!

Regards
Postnikov
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