Firm of Sazikov

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
piette
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby piette » Sat Jan 08, 2011 5:59 pm

Hi all,
Not marks on actual items, but some information all the same:

Sazikov in Moscow
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Sazikov in St Petersburg
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It would be interesting to see the St Petersburg mark on an actual item if anyone has an example.

Regards,
Piette

Juke
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Juke » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:54 am

Hi!

I get your point Postnikov and you have facts for your point, one would need to have access to the royalties and later nobilities vaults in Russia and other countries to see how the very high quality items they have are marked.

Regards,
Juke

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:50 am

Hi Juke -

some very educated "online-appraiser" wrote the following nonsense:

Appraised By: XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXX (admin edit)

History Of The Item: Supplier to the Imperial Court, Sazikov was one of the finest silver firms in Imperial Russia. Only Sazikov and Karl Faberge from St. Petersburg were the 2 jewelry maker masters allowed to make jewels for the Royal Palace, Emperror / King and Royal Family with a special decree. The country's biggest jewelry firm provided for the needs of the royal court and was allowed to stamp its wares with the state coat of arms. It was founded by Pavel Sazikov and took its beginning from a workshop and shop which he opened in Moscow in 1810. Its work was continued by his heirs. His son Ignaty Sazikov opened a branch of the workshop in St. Petersburg and, as evidenced by documents, was honoured with a gold medal with the inscription "For fine service" for his "unquestionable services... and the zeal with which he maintained the honour of his firm which held precedence throughout Russia in the production of items of gold and silverware, earning fame not only inside the country but also beyond its borders." The firm's produce which was exhibited at national manufactory shows was marked with a small and large gold medals; Ignaty Sazikov received a First Grade Medal at the London exhibition of 1851.

XXXXXXXXXXX (admin edit)

Appraiser Tips: Try to keep ivory out of water. Keep your set away from extremes of temperature and humidity. Wash by jhand always and use hot water then dry immediately and leave lids open for at least 48 hours before storing. Never wrap pieces with plastic and keep rubber bands away, as these can cause harm. I do not recommend polishing unless necessary, as tarnish is oxidized silver and when you remove it, you remove some of the silver. Be careful rubbing and do not polish in areas of hallmarks as they can be worn off and this will reduce desirability and values.
WhatsItWorthToYou.com
Research Sources: Various historical references, silvercollections.com, p4a.com, price guides, Kovels, appraisal archives.
xxxxxxxxx (admin edit)

Appraiser Comments: Hello, your appraisal request has been assigned to me. In answer to your question, yes....there is more than one Sazikov silver maker ( see history above). You should also be aware that Russian silver marks have unfrotunately been "faked" by some in recent years. It seems that your teaset has authentic hallmarks. In Russia, two-digit numbers refer to zolotniks, which convert to thousandths, e.g., 56 = 583 (14k), 84 = 875 silver (or 21k gold In America the silver standard for sterling silver is 925 parts per thousand, so your silver teaset doesn't meet that standard. The maker name on your pieces definitely looks like Sazikov, and the year indicated is in keeping with the style of the pieces. The historical information above may shed some light on your questions about the date being earlier than 1846. It appears that the maker was one of the Sazikovs, however it is not possible to confirm the maker from your photographs, and I would encourage you to seek a direct hands-on appraisal. The locking sugar is especially desirable and you may find that a key can be made for it. A very beautiful set.
xxxxxxxxx (admin edit)

* Current Fair Market Value: $4,000.00
xxxxxxxx (admin edit)

** Replacement Cost: $8,500.00

Here is the object:

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Fools like him dominate the Russian Silver market day by day and the ignorant believers pay every sum....

Regards
Postnikov

Juke
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Juke » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:45 pm

Hi!

Nice and amusing stories!

Regards,
Juke

piette
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby piette » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:56 pm

Hi all,

Postnikov's story also made me laugh!
On a side note, I am sure I read somewhere (it might even have been on this forum where I read it!) that a few years ago a big auction house sold a 'Fabergé Imperial egg' which had the double headed imperial eagle warrant which wasn't put on items that we're made for the Royal Family. Am I correct in thinking this?

Regards,
Piette

Dad
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Dad » Sun Jan 09, 2011 2:18 pm

Hi, all.

Really, the data about subjects of Sazikova from Petersburg seldom meets. Look at these examples:

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Best Reg..

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:05 pm

Hi Dad -

outstanding marks and Goldmedal worthy objects!

What is this for a townmark - looks like a teddybear?

Image

Regards
Postnikov

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:06 pm

Hi Piette -

it was not the eagle it was a scratchmark.

Regards
Postnikov

Dad
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Dad » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:25 pm

Postnikov wrote:Hi Dad -

outstanding marks and Goldmedal worthy objects!

What is this for a townmark - looks like a teddybear?

Regards
Postnikov



Don't mention it ;0)))))

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:30 am

Hi -
another fake with fake marks.

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Whenever there is a fake, the medal punch is not far!

Regards
Postnikov

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:42 am

Hi all -

to harden what I wrote above, some faked Sazikov objects, in brandnew condition (in the sense of the word!), though they are nealy 150 years old. Only the marks look 500 years old....
My firm conviction is: whenever you see a medal mark and the ridiculous Sazikov marks together - it is a 100% fake. Remember the many doubleheaded eagles on all the stopkas, cigarette cases etc. in the last years - a big sign for fakes - instead every thought it was a personal gift from the Szar!!
Here are some photos - if you need more - let me know. There are many much more bizarre objects ... I am waiting for the first mobile in enamel and diamonds in the future, with a medal punch of course!

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Regards
Postnikov

Dad
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Dad » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:29 pm

Hi, Postnikov.
I hear again only: «Fake, Fake, Fake,…» ))) If you don't like marks, please show to us good marks, which marks of the Petersburg branch are pleasant for you. Or now all marks «Sazikov from Petersburg» are the fake? May be branch was not in Petersburg?
It is the fact that in 1851 the British medal has been received. It was a great honor for Sazikov. There are not a data, that it didn't use in the marks this honourable symbol . The mention of such medal could promote sales in other countries.
I know use examples in marks of awards of other countries. For example, steel products of brothers of Zavjalovyh:

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Best Reg..

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:00 pm

Hi Dad -

please stay serious! We want to enlighten t o g e t h e r, if this to Sazikov dedicated medal was used in his trade mark yes or no and how. I am sure that you can attest that the marks I have shown above are fake marks. If you do not see that, than with all respect, it is better not to answer. Go to any auktion house and look what they have and please have a look at the marks. You are a Russian from St. Petersburg with all the possibilities to recherche, with hopefuly good conections to collectors and museums. I hope you are not one of the many ignorant, newlyrich Russians who storm the European auction houses and pay every price for Russian objects, fake or not, to decorate their datshas! I have been long enough in Russia to know what I am talking of!

So please be nice and help us with qualified contributions to maybe solve this riddle.

Regards
Postnikov

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:12 pm

Hi Dad -

I forgot to mention again that I showed some marks of Russian silversmiths with medals in their firmlogo - but as you must know - this were no foreign medals - but lokal awards from different Russian exhibitions. Please read what I write!

Further, we do not doubt the golmedal - we doubt the (faked) firmlogos from Sazikov. Please show me one or more authentic logos with medal from Sazikov. You know the difference between fake and authentic or do you accept Sazikov in Latin letters too?

Come on and show what you have!

Regards
Postnikov

Dad
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Dad » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:26 pm

Hi, Postnikov.
Excuse me for silence. I had not a time. The translater is brake.
I don't see a crime in marks which I have shown. But I am not authority on this question for you.
I add for comparison an example «Sazikov from Petersburg» from site Silvercollection. ( http://www.silvercollection.it/russians ... lmark.html )

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I have one question. There is a French import mark on suharnitza (сухарница) from your last example?

Best Reg..

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:46 pm

Hi Dad -

yes there is a French import mark - but the French mark only silver and gold from foreign countries according to their silver- or gold content. They do not proof if they are authentic.

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The owner of the site you mentioned, Giorgio Busetto, is a very, very nice guy but no expert on Russian marks. He collect whatever marks he get to help people - but do not verify them. It is always dangerous to take marks from unknown sources!

Just look at the townmark - which town? It looks like a teddy bear....

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Dad, if you look close to the shown objects you must see that they are "brandnew", no scratch, no ding, no use - but the marks are unclear, clumsy and often wrong. Do you think, Sazikov had only wrecked and spoiled punches? As Court jeweller with an English Gold medal and countless other high awards?

Regards
Postnikov

Nevsky
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Nevsky » Wed Sep 17, 2014 12:34 pm

Maybe this old discussion on Sazikov markings could have a follow up after the publication of the book by Mrs. Voldaeva Veronica Yuryevna.
Please see the topic "Comprehensive periodized Sazikov marks" by AG2012 in this forum for the newly identified Sazikov markings as shown in the scheme presented there.
It apparently shows the Victoria and Albert medal punch from the London World Exhibition in 1851 being a real mark used by Sazikov and NOT a fake, as suggested by some contributors in this discussion.
Also there was question if the marking of the double headed imperial eagle would have been different in the Moscow and St Petersburg branches of the firm.
Moscow office used a cartouche outlining the eagle's wings and St Petersburg apparently a circular cartouche.
A fork and knife in my collection hold the St Petersburg marks as shown on the pictures below.
The knife with date 1870 and assay mark И.Е for Ivan Vonif. Jestignev.
The fork dated 1869, assay master П.М, unknown but from 1867 - 1869.
Fake or real?
Any comments are appreciated.

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Qrt.S
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Qrt.S » Wed Sep 17, 2014 1:08 pm

I see no reason to suspect the fork and knife presented by Nevsky to be faked.

For the records the assayer И-Е's name is Yevstigneyev, Ivan Vonifatievitch, St Petersburg 1870-1894.

Nonetheless, the mark of Sazikov suspected faked has nothing to do with Sazikov's mark showed here by Nevsky. The dubious Sazikov mark's font is in italics. I haven't seen this mark mentioned in any book until recently in the mentioned rather new book. Sorry, but I'm still a bit suspicious it being authentic. It needs to be investigated more thoroughly before a final amen. Anyway, is it real or not remains to be seen. By the way, I have not either heard about the author earlier. Does anybody know who she is?

Zolotnik
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Zolotnik » Wed Sep 17, 2014 2:50 pm

Hi all -
Just a reminder who Sazikov really was - certainly no junk- or scrap maker as it looks when you see what is sold under his name.

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Here some of his authentic marks:

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Here the "new" mark (several forms known):

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This discussion should always have in mind that Sazikov was one of the best manufacturers/silversmiths in Russia - ie the quality of his work was always exceptional. Why he would have otherwise received so many honors?
The so-called medal mark appeared only in the last few years and was never seen or mentioned in textbooks ect. before. To mark existing objects with faux punches is an old habit of the forgers. Compare every detail of the mark with an original mark (see above)!
I can only warn strongly against the daily fraud everywhere - do your homework and know what you do! To detect someday fakes in your collection is no pleasure! Do not ask others if your objects are authentic! Decide for yourself and live with your decision!

Regards
Zolotnik

AG2012
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby AG2012 » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:09 am

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In one of the pictures above there is a curious mark called ``gall above water``. It was import mark to The Kingdom of Yugoslavia used from 1933 to 1941, i.e. when WWII started and never used afterwards.


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