Firm of Sazikov

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piette
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Firm of Sazikov

Postby piette » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:28 am

Hi everyone,
Yesterday, I was looking through books for information on The Firm of Sazikov. I looked in P-L (#2835) and in Руссое Серебро and found a great deal of information, but the information from the books contradicted each other and various dates were different. Here are the two extracts:
Postnikova
Image

Руссое Серебро
Image

My understanding of the translation of Postnikova is as follows:

"Pavlov Fedorovich Sazikov was a merchant of the third guild and the founder of the company. He opened a workshop in 1793 which lasted until 1810. In 1810 he opened a factory in Moscow which made a variety of silver jewellery. In 1842 his son Ignaty Pavlovich opened a branch in Petersburg but he stayed in Moscow.
When Ignaty died, he transferred the Moscow branch to his sons Paul and Sergey Ignatevich which was open up until 1879 and he transferred the Petersburg branch to his other son Valentin Ignatevich who ran it until it closed in 1882.
The firm held the title of court supplier from 1846 and was especially known for making silver sculptures often with a historic theme. (Known to have made tea services with cast heads, salt cellars, cups, spoons, glass holders, icons & gospels and picture frames. Examples in various Russian museums.)"

Can anyone clear up the confusion caused here? Which source is more reliable in this case, or should it be a case of taking bits of information from both books and trying to fit them together to form one 'story'?

Any help is very much appreciated.
Regards,
Piette

piette
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby piette » Sat Jan 01, 2011 11:47 am

Also, here is the extract from Руссое Серебро once again, this time in Russian.
Image

Regards,
Piette

Qrt.S
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Jan 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Well piette, you gonna stumble into this problem with contradictory data many times. This is nothing new. But know what data is correct is more than difficult. You just have to stick to what you can find.

This is what I have in my sources:
Sazikov was on of the best and famous companies in Moscow and St Petersburg and a supplier of the Imperial Court. The company was founded in 1793 by Pavel Fjodorovitsh Sazikov. It is unknown when he was born but he died around 1830. He marked between 1812~1830. Upon the death of Pavel Fjodorovich his son Ignati Pavlovich 1793-1868 overtook the business in Moscow. Sazikov was appointed Court supplier in 1837. In 1842 the St Petersburg branch was founded. When Ignati died his three sons carried on. The Moscow firm was led by Segei Ignatievish 1823-1880. Valentin Ignatievish 1830-1877 led St Petersburg branch in co-operation with his wife Valentina Pavlovna and their son Pavel Valentinovitsh 1860-? The eldest son Pavel Ignatievish 1815-1856 was the artistic director of the whole group and located in Moscow. Sazikov’s firm was active to 1887 when it was merged with Hlebnikov’s firm.

Sazikov’s firm attended many exhibitions and had a lot of rewards. The highest price they took in 1882 in Moscow when they got the “State coat of arms” award.

The initials on the objects manufactured were ПС, ИС, И.С, САС, САЗИКОИЪ, П.САЗИКОВЪ and САЗИКОВА.

There is more information but I find it unnecessary to as for now publish it here. Gimme a PM if you are more interested.

dognose
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby dognose » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:15 pm

Hi Qrt.S,

There is more information but I find it unnecessary to as for now publish it here. Gimme a PM if you are more interested.



Please remember that the whole purpose of a forum is for the sharing of information, any answers are not just intended for the member that posted the question, but for everyone who is interested enough to view the post
From: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=22225

If you're willing to write it in a PM, why not write it here?

Trev.

Qrt.S
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:25 pm

Hi dognose,

Heheh, please do not distort what I wrote. I did not say that I write a PM what I said was that send me a PM. You see there are some pages and I cannot publish several pages here. What I can do is scan the pages and by request send them as attachments in a email. However, the information is not so important rather useless such. It is only what they made and in what exhibitions they took part etc. I stated the most important in my input.

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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby dognose » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:53 pm

Hi Qrt.S,

If it's copyrighted material, then I understand.

Trev.

piette
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby piette » Sat Jan 01, 2011 2:58 pm

Qrt.S wrote:Well piette, you gonna stumble into this problem with contradictory data many times. This is nothing new. But know what data is correct is more than difficult. You just have to stick to what you can find.

This is what I have in my sources:
Sazikov was on of the best and famous companies in Moscow and St Petersburg and a supplier of the Imperial Court. The company was founded in 1793 by Pavel Fjodorovitsh Sazikov. It is unknown when he was born but he died around 1830. He marked between 1812~1830. Upon the death of Pavel Fjodorovich his son Ignati Pavlovich 1793-1868 overtook the business in Moscow. Sazikov was appointed Court supplier in 1837. In 1842 the St Petersburg branch was founded. When Ignati died his three sons carried on. The Moscow firm was led by Segei Ignatievish 1823-1880. Valentin Ignatievish 1830-1877 led St Petersburg branch in co-operation with his wife Valentina Pavlovna and their son Pavel Valentinovitsh 1860-? The eldest son Pavel Ignatievish 1815-1856 was the artistic director of the whole group and located in Moscow. Sazikov’s firm was active to 1887 when it was merged with Hlebnikov’s firm.

Sazikov’s firm attended many exhibitions and had a lot of rewards. The highest price they took in 1882 in Moscow when they got the “State coat of arms” award.

The initials on the objects manufactured were ПС, ИС, И.С, САС, САЗИКОИЪ, П.САЗИКОВЪ and САЗИКОВА.

There is more information but I find it unnecessary to as for now publish it here. Gimme a PM if you are more interested.


Thank you for this info Qrt.S :-)

So am I right in thinking that the St Petersburg branch probably closed when Vanentin Ignatievish died?
Also, is it known who managed the firm for its final 7 years after Sergei Ignatievish died? Valentin's son, Pavel Ignatievish perhaps?

Regards,
Piette

Qrt.S
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Qrt.S » Sat Jan 01, 2011 3:19 pm

I don't know what is the source for the claim that St Petersburg would have been closed in 1877. That was the year when Valentin died. However, both his wife and son were engaged in the company business. They continued until the merge in 1887. Why would they have closed the firm? I think it is somebody's too hasty conclusion as a result of Valentin's death. However, I'm not sure. I told you all I know.

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Sat Jan 01, 2011 9:20 pm

Hi piette -
some dates for Sazikov

Image

Regards
Postnikov

piette
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby piette » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:02 am

Hi Postnikov,
Thank you for this information. Do you mind my asking, which book is this from?
Regards,
Piette

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:58 am

Hi piette -

A book I highly recommend for interested and collectors. Many up to date informations, photos of top objects, marks and background knowledge - and the best: in English

Title: Russian Gold and Silverwork 17th-19th Century, by Alexander von Solodkoff LC: 81-51103, ISBN: 0-8478-0398-8

To get it try antiquariats like: www.biblio.com

Image

No - I don´t get a premium!

Regards
Postnikov

piette
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby piette » Sun Jan 02, 2011 12:32 pm

Hi Postnikov,
Thank you very much for the book information - You should get a premium because your recommendation has just earned the author another sale! :-)
Regards,
Piette

ARGENTUM49
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby ARGENTUM49 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:28 pm

Image

I have already sent this Sazikov hallmark to Postnikov (on the kovsh I was talking about)
Imperial eagle on top
Сазиковь in handwriting
Unknown assayer И Е (1870 — 1891 St.Petersburg), year 1879.
Another hallmark at the bottom: man’s profile facing left (probably Alexander II)?????????
I have never seen this hallmark on any of his other silver.
Any possibility of fake excluded.This is the hallmark on the gilded kovsh brought to Montenegro in 19th century.
It is not engraved - the decor is deeply CARVED into thick silver.There is no master to make it today this way, and other faking techniques would be easily disclosed. I will take pictures of it to share them with you.

Ivan

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:53 pm

Hi Ivan -
please scroll down for the contribution of 2204 patrick St. Petersburg 1879 from July 10, 2009

Regards
Postnikov

Postnikov
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Postnikov » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:57 pm

Hi Ivan -
here you find the whole contribution:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=16998

Regards
Postnikov

Qrt.S
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:01 am

Ivan, please don't start again. This Sazikov mark is spurious. There is no evidence what so ever that the Sazikov firm would have used such a "written" mark. Read the link Postnikov gave you.

ARGENTUM49
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby ARGENTUM49 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:19 pm

The history of Sazikov:
Quote:
``it is likely that Valentina and Pavel closed the Petersburg branch and returned to Moscow, where they ran the firm themselves, until it merged with The Firm of Khlebnikov in 1887. ``
Excuse me if I repeat something that has already been discussed: poorly documented history.Serbia has experienced the same faith as Russia, Czechoslovakia, Poland and Germany: wars, revolutions, destruction, plunder etc. You all have Tardy: you will find a section on Serbia and the Kingdom of Yugoslavia. Do you think that The Assay Office has those hallmarking tools? Certainly not! They simply vanished into thin air. I am 100% sure that the same thing happened in Russia, too. Do we know what happened to the original hallmarking tools? Certainly not. Where are they now? They were not sold as scrapped metal that is for sure. Have old hallmarking tools, when the system changed, been officially destroyed and recorded. Certainly not. The quote at the top is a proof: how is it possible that there are no records of such an important event like closing one of the most important Russian silversmiths (`` it is likely that ….etc). Those tools are somewhere out there and they are dangerous because they are genuine. Fortunately, we observe the quality of the silver and do not rely on hallmarks only. Off topic, we have the same problem with Loettz glass, in the circle I participate in. The value of Loetz glass is comparable to authentic Russian silver and it is faked, too. We have records that over 70 000 original drawings of the design and décor existed, but most of it was lost during WW II. Only about 7 000 drawings are rediscovered. Therefore, from time to time a new shape, décor, or mark emerges and we accept it on the basis of quality, design and decor only, because most of the glass was not marked. There is no doubt that the same can be applied to Russian silver. The book is not closed: new hallmarks may appear if struck on proved genuine silver. In short, we cannot rely only on marks identified so far, as clearly seen in Postnikova editions. Before the second edition most of the collectors were convinced that Акционарное общество артелей московских золотьих дел мастеров (АОАМЗ) was in fact a tobacco retailer! Letter O looked like D and it was associated with some Adams importer of tobacco. And still, there is a question mark beside this information in her book. Not acceptable for the beginning of 2oth century and it only indicated the lack of evidence. My modest mesaage is to be open minded to new discoveries.I rely on you because I haven’t bought silver for 15 years or so.
Ivan

Qrt.S
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Qrt.S » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:30 pm

Well, rely then, it is a faked mark, basta and end of discussion as for me.

ARGENTUM49
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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby ARGENTUM49 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 12:48 pm

I am afraid now to post any comment. I only tried to tell to be open minded because to rely on ``evidence`` currently available in countries like Russia, and my country included, is a trap. There is no written evidence of much more important things than what hallmarks were used by Sazikov. Off topic, we still do not know where the leader of anti- communist army was shot and buried in 1945 and the bodies of the Russian Imperial family were found only several years ago. In my previous post I only tried to explain the overwhelming lack of evidence and that it should be the subject of further research. I do not insist on the genuine hallmarks of my kovsh, but there must be a reliable ``missing link`` somewhere (on proven genuine silver with unrecognized hallmark so far). The filigree piece in the thread directed to my by Postnikov is a joke, the box as well, because they are EASILY MADE. This is not England where it was recorded e.g. that Richard III entering the Parliament asked The Archbishop of Canterbury to send a basket of strawberries he saw in the Bishop`s garden that very morning. There is a written document about it and it was in the 14th century. If my kovsh is not genuine I do not mind, it is not for sale anyway, but the research must go on.
Ivan

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Re: Firm of Sazikov

Postby Juke » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:52 pm

Hi!

Well let me give my thoughts on the cases. I fully agree on the open mindness when investigating the history of the russian silver and the marks that we find. Also I am today confident on the deep research that have been done until now meaning that for instance Postikova & co hade access to extensive amount of authenitic items in museums etc so the marks that are on russian silver are known even if it is not always known who made them. If there would have been a small worker whose silver items have been totally lost so we would not know of her/him and whose marks today would not be know there could be a rare possibility that some item could popup but it is very difficult to think that for a major maker (ex. court suppliers) as that would mean there would not be another authentic item by the same maker which would have the same marks. I don't claim and I think we are not in a position to make research in this forum meaning that someone could make a new finding of a mark so we have to rely on the litterature available. Few years back I conidered it possible that new marks could be found but not anymore. When there comes up a mark for instance on this forum that is not listed in the litterature it makes a big question mark on the item itself. I can not in all these cases say where/when/by whom the item would have been made but simply it is a big question mark if something unknown is shown. In many of these cases there are other reasons which shows also question marks.

I also agree on the approach to look at the quality first, even before the marks. If I think of the kovsh you show I would say that it has a medium quality, there are some unsimilarities on for instance the handle which I see reduces the quality from what one would expect. I can not say more but these things makes questions.

Let me highlight a case which Postikov showed on this forum (link below). The case was of a very big kovsh which was sold in a Finnish auction before Christmas. I myself visited the auction, photoed the mark as it was by itself a question mark. To my big surprise there was on sale in Germany a totally similar kovsh including the marks meaning that the marks looked and were on exactly the same place etc. The only explanation was that these kovsch's were cast and not made by hand which if you look at the quality is a huge surprise for me and could only mean that they where not authentic.

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=22421&start=35

Learning is also a though process for people when they believe to be right and that has been proved on this forum in many cases.

Regards,
Juke


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