Maker Kh.P on Russian vodka cup, Moscow 1896

Sebastian · Post by **Sebastian** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:05 am

Please could someone tell me the maker of this vodka cup: Kh.P The assayer's mark is worn but it looks to be assayed in Moscow by Anatoly Artsibashev in 1896. The maker's mark is struck twice, and I show both of them.

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Postnikov · Post by **Postnikov** » Thu Jun 10, 2010 6:40 pm

Hi -

your object is from Tula, not Moskow!
The assay master is Averianov, Gubernikij Probirer
The silversmithÂ´s name Ð¥.ÐŸ is unfortunately unknown.

Regards
Postnikov
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agphile · Post by **agphile** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:33 am

Gubernikij probirer must mean government assayer, mustn't it, rather than be first name and patronymic?
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Postnikov · Post by **Postnikov** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:13 am

Hi -

yes, Government Assayer is the right translation!

Regards
Postnikov
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Sebastian · Post by **Sebastian** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 2:57 pm

Thanks for your information Postnikov.
Pity the maker is unknown.
Can you be sure it is a Tula vodka cup though? I've seen a Moscow assay master's mark on the internet from about the same time, which has this exact oval shape. Also there aren't any assay masters in Tula mentioned in Watt's book after the mid-19th century. Just a thought.
Best regards
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Postnikov · Post by **Postnikov** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 7:53 pm

Hi -

Please have a close look at the townmark - it is Tula.
The makerÂ´s mark and the assayer in the given time frame exists in Tula too - so the marks you have fits.
ThatÂ´s all I can tell you. With all respect - this is not the place to explain why, how and where Russian silver marks were placed or looked usually or in special cases over the last 350 years.
Unfortunately the Russian Gouvernment destroyed thousands and thousands of files in mid - 19 century as useless to make room for new files. Since many years a certain bunch of collectors of Russian silver (me included) from around the world try to bring some light into this gap.
That is the reason why there are many, many objects from different silversmiths (who must have been wellknown and successful at that time), whose marks are known but the names and dates are missing/lost.

Tip:
If you are interested in the silvermarks of Russia, please buy some competent books - WattÂ´s is just a copy of a copy of a copy......with all the mistakes, errors and nonsense of these copies.

Regards
Postnikov
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Sebastian · Post by **Sebastian** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 10:56 am

Thank you again Postnikov for your time, and for your patience with me. So my vodka cup was made by an unknown maker Kh.P and assayed in Tula in 1896 by Averianov.
I guess that's what good about the forum, beginners like me learning by everyone sharing their knowledge. I wish you success in your research, maybe one day you find this maker Kh.P, if so please let me know!
Which books would you recommend as competent on Russian marks?
Best regards
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Postnikov · Post by **Postnikov** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:29 pm

Hi -

one of the best (in Russian language only) is:

Ð—ÐžÐ›ÐžÐ¢ÐžÐ• Ð˜ Ð¡Ð•Ð Ð•Ð‘Ð Ð¯ÐÐžÐ• Ð”Ð•Ð›Ðž XV-XX Ð²Ð².

(Gold and Silver in XV-XX century by M.M.POSTNIKOVA-LOSEVA, N.G.PLATONOVA, B.L.ULJANOVA

There are others but for the start this is ok. Try amazon or bookshops in Tallin/Estonia.

Regards
Postnikov
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