Dear Forum!
you are my last hope...
I'm a small private silver collector, this set is most confusing item in my collection - please help!
1. The set comes from one family, all items (about 75 items) have same pattern.
2. Some of the items have russian hallmarks (84 and Head)
3. Some items have Polish (Poland) marks.
4. Some items have mystery mark , looks like S!84 , I have no idea what is it...
5. ALL ITEMS have SAME hallmarks AN, maybe for Anders Johan Navalinen (P-L #1483), which worked some periof for Faberge.
6. Few items have same monograms, AN (maybe private collection of Navalinen itself,... it's too good to be true:-)
Could you please try to explain all that - who is the silversmith , why some items were made in Russia, some in Poland, what is it S!84, Where we can find biography of Navalinen, maybe it can help...
Thank you so much, your permanent reader,
Dr. Peremislov
Pictures:
http://www.MyEasyPics.com/is.php?i=5690 ... S00001.jpg
http://www.MyEasyPics.com/is.php?i=5690 ... S00002.jpg
http://www.MyEasyPics.com/is.php?i=5690 ... S00016.jpg
http://www.MyEasyPics.com/is.php?i=5690 ... S00013.jpg
http://www.MyEasyPics.com/is.php?i=5690 ... S00003.jpg
http://www.MyEasyPics.com/is.php?i=5690 ... S00004.jpg
http://www.MyEasyPics.com/is.php?i=5690 ... S00009.jpg
http://www.MyEasyPics.com/is.php?i=5690 ... S00012.jpg
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Russian/Polish marks & Anders Johan Navalinen - PLEASE H
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2209patrick
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I’m very doubtful indeed whether this ”AN” would be the silversmith Anders Johan Nevalainen (this is the correct spelling). But since you’re asking about him, I can tell you that he was born January 1st 1858 in the county of Pielisjärvi in Finland. He died 1933 in Terijoki, a small town on the Carelian isthmus in the former Finland, nowadays Zelenogorsk in Russia. He worked as from 1876 to about 1917 in St: Petersburg, Russia and became master 1885. He worked with Fabergé, which is one of the reasons that I’m almost sure that it isn’t him. The other is that the mark doesn’t match his mark, as I should.
Anyway, the kokoshnik mark looking left is the assay master mark (1899-1926) of Aleksandr Vasilievich Romanov in Warsaw 1899-1904 during the Russian period, which lasted from 1795-1918. Romanov also worked in St: Petersburg 1904-1912 using that mark. Sorry but I cannot read who the silver smith is. However, it’s obvious that your pieces are not Russian but probably as you say from Poland. The rest I leave to blakstone. Let’s hope he pops in :-).
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Anyway, the kokoshnik mark looking left is the assay master mark (1899-1926) of Aleksandr Vasilievich Romanov in Warsaw 1899-1904 during the Russian period, which lasted from 1795-1918. Romanov also worked in St: Petersburg 1904-1912 using that mark. Sorry but I cannot read who the silver smith is. However, it’s obvious that your pieces are not Russian but probably as you say from Poland. The rest I leave to blakstone. Let’s hope he pops in :-).
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It stands to be corrected but it could be Adam Nagalski (1862-1944) in Warsaw.
The SR 84 was used during the period from 1915 to 1920.
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=36091" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hope this helps.
Best regards/JAKJO
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The SR 84 was used during the period from 1915 to 1920.
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=36091" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hope this helps.
Best regards/JAKJO
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Hi!
The first picture is a russian kokoshnik as you know and indicated by Qrt.S. If you can read what the makers mark is then someone can possibly tell you the maker. I am also confident that the maker is not Anders Nevalainen even if it reads AN.
The second and last picture have polish marks from 1922 to 1939 (practically to 1963). If there is a letter W behind the head (which I believe) then they have been hallmarked in Warsaw.
The third and forth pictures with the S? 84 mark is a polish mark used between 1915 to 1920. Most commonly the markings during that period are S 84 and SR 84 (standing for srebra - silver).
The maker AN is polish and his name is Adam Nagalski (1862-1944). He worked in the period of 1894 to 1944.
Possibly blakstone can add some comments.
Regards,
Juke
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The first picture is a russian kokoshnik as you know and indicated by Qrt.S. If you can read what the makers mark is then someone can possibly tell you the maker. I am also confident that the maker is not Anders Nevalainen even if it reads AN.
The second and last picture have polish marks from 1922 to 1939 (practically to 1963). If there is a letter W behind the head (which I believe) then they have been hallmarked in Warsaw.
The third and forth pictures with the S? 84 mark is a polish mark used between 1915 to 1920. Most commonly the markings during that period are S 84 and SR 84 (standing for srebra - silver).
The maker AN is polish and his name is Adam Nagalski (1862-1944). He worked in the period of 1894 to 1944.
Possibly blakstone can add some comments.
Regards,
Juke
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No no , the shown Polish mark, the woman's head is in use only to 31.12.1931 and no letter can be found behind the woman's neck. Look at the shape of the shield, its not oval.
As from 1.1.1932 the mark's shield changes to an oval and now you will find the mentioned letter, usually W, behind the neck. Actually it is more or less very similar to the mark that was used before 1932 for pieces weighting less than 10 grams but with no letter expressing the assaying office.
But this S!84 still confuses me, any clues?
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As from 1.1.1932 the mark's shield changes to an oval and now you will find the mentioned letter, usually W, behind the neck. Actually it is more or less very similar to the mark that was used before 1932 for pieces weighting less than 10 grams but with no letter expressing the assaying office.
But this S!84 still confuses me, any clues?
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According to my references both the shield and oval shape has a letter behind the head (refering to the assay office). I can see that there would be a letter behind the head in the pictures but it is too unclear to say which letter it is. Could dopler tell if/what letter there is?
I can not see in the picture what the second character is in the S? 84 mark but anyway it is from the period 1915-20.
Possibly blakstone can add some comments on these with the excellent reference books on polish silver.
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I can not see in the picture what the second character is in the S? 84 mark but anyway it is from the period 1915-20.
Possibly blakstone can add some comments on these with the excellent reference books on polish silver.
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Not much to add here, as it appears to have been all sorted out: a Warsaw set assembled over the first quarter of the 20th century, by Adam Nagalski, and with the Russian “kokoshnik” marks of 1899-1908, Polish interim marks of 1915-1920, and Polish state marks of 1920-1931. I think I can tie up two loose ends, though.
First, there was no state-contolled assay in the new country of Poland until a law regarding the control of precious metals was passed on 16 Jul 1920. The interim marks used from 1915 until that time were applied by the manufacturer, and therefore vary from maker to maker. The “Sr. 84” mark (with the period under the lowercase “r”, a common way to indicate an abbreviation, in this case “Srebro” = “Silver”) was apparently unique to Nagalski. Here’s another example with another of his marks, spelled out in full, incuse:
Second, peursuant to the law of 16 Jul 1920, the first assay office in the new country of Poland was opened in Warsaw on 1 Sep 1920, with two more following in Lvov and Krakow on 1 Jan 1921. There were three finenesses established for silver: 1= .940, 2= .875 and 3= .800. The mark for these was the head of a peasant woman in left profile, facing the standard number and with the assay office mark (W = Warsaw; K = Krakow; L = Lvov, etc.) behind her head. There were two types of mark: one a truncated oval (as here) for large items, the other a proper oval for small items.
Polish marks were extensively revised in a decree of 31 Jul 1931, which became effective on 1 Jan 1932. There was thenceforth to be only one mark for silver of any size, and it was nearly identical to the small silver mark in use 1920-1931, i.e., an oval. Thus, as stated, this truncated mark must be before 1932, but it should in fact contain the assay office mark, which is clearly visible (if not entirely legible) in the original photos.
There was also a small, circular “peasant’s head” garniture mark, however, which did not contain either the standard number or assay office mark; a very similar mark was used for the same purpose in Russia/the USSR. This garniture mark, and the oval mark, remained in use in Poland through 1963.
Hope this clears things up!
Refs:
Ryszard Bobrow, Srebra Warszawskie 1851-1939, v. II (Warsaw: Muzeum Narodowe w Warszawie, 1997), pp. 31-32. (The source of the photos above.)
Michal Gradowski, Znaki Na Srebrze (Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN, 2001), pp. 249-252.
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First, there was no state-contolled assay in the new country of Poland until a law regarding the control of precious metals was passed on 16 Jul 1920. The interim marks used from 1915 until that time were applied by the manufacturer, and therefore vary from maker to maker. The “Sr. 84” mark (with the period under the lowercase “r”, a common way to indicate an abbreviation, in this case “Srebro” = “Silver”) was apparently unique to Nagalski. Here’s another example with another of his marks, spelled out in full, incuse:
Second, peursuant to the law of 16 Jul 1920, the first assay office in the new country of Poland was opened in Warsaw on 1 Sep 1920, with two more following in Lvov and Krakow on 1 Jan 1921. There were three finenesses established for silver: 1= .940, 2= .875 and 3= .800. The mark for these was the head of a peasant woman in left profile, facing the standard number and with the assay office mark (W = Warsaw; K = Krakow; L = Lvov, etc.) behind her head. There were two types of mark: one a truncated oval (as here) for large items, the other a proper oval for small items.
Polish marks were extensively revised in a decree of 31 Jul 1931, which became effective on 1 Jan 1932. There was thenceforth to be only one mark for silver of any size, and it was nearly identical to the small silver mark in use 1920-1931, i.e., an oval. Thus, as stated, this truncated mark must be before 1932, but it should in fact contain the assay office mark, which is clearly visible (if not entirely legible) in the original photos.
There was also a small, circular “peasant’s head” garniture mark, however, which did not contain either the standard number or assay office mark; a very similar mark was used for the same purpose in Russia/the USSR. This garniture mark, and the oval mark, remained in use in Poland through 1963.
Hope this clears things up!
Refs:
Ryszard Bobrow, Srebra Warszawskie 1851-1939, v. II (Warsaw: Muzeum Narodowe w Warszawie, 1997), pp. 31-32. (The source of the photos above.)
Michal Gradowski, Znaki Na Srebrze (Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN, 2001), pp. 249-252.
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Thank you!
Dear Forum - Thank you SO MUCH! Wow - what's a great example of the open discussion, deep knowledge and perfect communication! Best Regards to all! THANK YOU-THANK YOU-THANK YOU!!!
dopler
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dopler
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The pattern was created by Koch & Bergfeld, Bremen about 1890 and is still produced by that company (see http://www.kochberg.de" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; English version - Cutlery Workshop- Designs - Price list - View Price list separately - Preisgruppe 4 - Model No. 20100 called Sophie). K & B around 1900 one of the biggest silverware producers in Germany had strong business relations with Russia. The pattern was also produced in Vienna. I have a lot of pieces from K & B and also some coffee spoons with the Kokoshnik mark (- 1908) like photo 1, a maker's mark "KB" and a star with a dot in the centre.
Can anybody tell me something about the maker "KB"?
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Can anybody tell me something about the maker "KB"?
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Hi Juke,
the assay master's initials are extremely tiny, but with a 20x magnifying-glass I read AB (in capital letters, cyrillic or latin?). Following the kokoshnik mark list it could be Alexander Virjohovsky from Kostroma. At the moment I have no possibility to take a photo.
Do you know anything about the pattern?
Regards silverfan
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the assay master's initials are extremely tiny, but with a 20x magnifying-glass I read AB (in capital letters, cyrillic or latin?). Following the kokoshnik mark list it could be Alexander Virjohovsky from Kostroma. At the moment I have no possibility to take a photo.
Do you know anything about the pattern?
Regards silverfan
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Hi!
Yes the assay master letters are in cyrillic and the name of the assayer is Alexander Vyrzhiovsky. Actually he was working in Kiev from 1899-1904, not in Kostroma, so your spoons have been made/assayed in that period. I found a silversmith in Kiev with the cyrillic letters KB, unfortunately he is unknown in my references. This is not uncommon as there are many russian silversmiths that are unknown today, possibly their names will be found out later.
I have no futher information on the pattern what you wrote but as you indicated there were connections between countries and same/similar patterns were used in several countries. I don't know what name they used in Russia.
Regards,
Juke
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Yes the assay master letters are in cyrillic and the name of the assayer is Alexander Vyrzhiovsky. Actually he was working in Kiev from 1899-1904, not in Kostroma, so your spoons have been made/assayed in that period. I found a silversmith in Kiev with the cyrillic letters KB, unfortunately he is unknown in my references. This is not uncommon as there are many russian silversmiths that are unknown today, possibly their names will be found out later.
I have no futher information on the pattern what you wrote but as you indicated there were connections between countries and same/similar patterns were used in several countries. I don't know what name they used in Russia.
Regards,
Juke
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