forks-French/Germany/Russia

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
dolpheus
contributor
Posts: 82
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 9:36 am
Location: Czech republic, Prague

forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by dolpheus »

Hello,
i am a little confused by these little forks marking. Every enlighting i very welcomme.
I thing, it is obvious, these forks were made by Emile Puiforcat in Paris. Or, better, by its grandson Jean?
Exact creation time is unknown to me. It is true, Puiforcat's mark was in use till 1945 and no more?
Because absence of French hallmark, i suppose forks were made for export. But here are German hallmarks and also Russian import marks.
Possibly were these firstly imported to Germany (during German occupation?). Then, after WW II. these were imported to Russia, Leningrad
- standard import mark 1927-1958, import letter alpha. "maker mark" is, i suppose, Ленинградская ювелирно-часовая фабрика. I know, there were marks лю0, лю1,...for years 1953-65.
But i dont know mark лют. Also, absolutely unknown to me is separate mark "P".
And also silver purity is unclear to me - 800 in germany, 875 in Russia? In Russia was this time lowest standard 875? And if, it was possible use this import mark for items of lower purity?
Thanks for every help
Martin.
Image Image Image Image Image
Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3801
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by Qrt.S »

How many times do I have to remind everybody not to talk about Russia when you mean the Soviet Union. The difference is so big that you cannot even imagine it. What you call "Russian marks" are SOVIET UNION import marks. ЛЮТ stand for Ювелирное товарищество Ленинград, something like Jewelry Association of Leningrad. The minimum fineness in USSR and Russia (84 zolotnik) was 875/1000 and it is the same in "new" Russia. The "P" (Latin R) is a restoration mark. Maybe the spoons have been broken somehow and "restored", difficult to know.
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 58995
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by dognose »

Hi Martin,

Welcome back to the Forum.

This is a fascinating set of forks. I suppose the only hallmarks are the Soviet ones, as the German marks were struck by the actual silversmiths themselves, which begs the question, who struck the German marks?

I've never seen such an example before, but I wonder if there was any law preventing a foreign manufacturer striking the half-moon and crown on silverware if the item were destined to be sold in Germany? Hopefully someone will know the answer to this.

The marks indicate the minimum fineness, not the actual fineness. In this case we can assume that the fineness is a minimum of 875/1000.

Perhaps the forks were refurbished by ЛЮ and then assayed and hallmarked ready for sale in USSR.

Qrt.S, presumably the 'T' is the date-letter, do you know what date this indicates?

Trev.
Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3801
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by Qrt.S »

Sorry, mea culpa, forgot the year. Actually the exact years on Soviet made objects are usually expressed with a figure not a letter. I'm not sure what the T stands for, most likely Tоварищество but the working period for this actual company is 1921-1927
JayT
contributor
Posts: 925
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by JayT »

Here is my input on these well-travelled forks:
-It is very puzzling that there is no French standard mark or French export mark.
-The maker's mark appears to be that of the house of Puiforcat. Placement of the mark is a bit high; usual placement is closer to the heel of the fork.
-The pattern is a neoclassical pattern in the Louis XVI style, possibly No. 31 Rubans, although I can't tell for sure because the picture looks blurry on my monitor. This pattern is no longer in production.
-The pattern is certainly not a design by Jean Puiforcat, whose work was in the Art Deco style.
-Jean Puiforcat died young in 1945, but the family firm continued. The house of Puiforcat is alive and well, having been purchased by Hermès a few years ago. Their objects are sold through retail outlets, the Internet, and at their flagship store just off the Champs-Elysées.

Trev: To my knowledge a French firm would not have struck non-French marks. Pardon my ignorance, but might the German marks have been struck by the retailer?
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 58995
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by dognose »

Hi JayT,

I've no idea either. This is certainly one of the most intriguing topics we've had for a while.

Did Puiforcat ever have a German base? Christofle had one at Karlsruhe.

Trev.
JayT
contributor
Posts: 925
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by JayT »

Yes, a very curious case. The size and placement of the maker's mark and lack of a French silver standard mark bother me.

Puiforcat has always taken pride in its "Made in France" brand, upscale products, small production, and hand finishing. They have not manufactured outside France, unlike Christofle which has an altogether different kind of production.

It will be interesting when the experts on German marks weigh in on this subject.
silverfan
contributor
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:29 pm
Location: munich

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by silverfan »

Hi all,
I had a similar problem. Two years ago I bought a fish service Puiforcat pattern "Aux Iris" without any French mark, only with German marks halfmoon, crown, 800. Having already a complete flatware service of table knives, forks and spoons, I could compare. There was no difference in the pattern. I discussed this with Mr. Joel Feigly at Puiforcat's in Paris. At first he wouldn't believe that; he even said Puiforcat never had produced flatware in "deuxième titre" ( = 800/1000 silver). Only when I found in eBay some months later a box of a jeweller in Strasbourg with forks marked Puifocat (E canif P) deuxième titre (mercure = exportation) and spoons marked halfmoon, crown, 800 without French marks of the same pattern in a box of a jeweller in Francfort, Mr. Feigly no longer could deny the facts and finally admitted that this "information sur le titrage demeure pour nous un mystère de l'histoire". He also had no explanation for the lack of the maker's mark on the fish service.
Regards silverfan
JayT
contributor
Posts: 925
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by JayT »

Thanks Silverfan for this very interesting information.
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 58995
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by dognose »

Hi Silverfan,

Thank you for sharing that information.

Can you tell us who is allowed to strike the halfmoon and crown marks? Is it the manufacturer only, or are importers, wholesalers, etc. also allowed?

Trev.
Dad
contributor
Posts: 739
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by Dad »

Hi, All.

Maybe Puiforcat produced these forks during Occupation, in period of WWII. Feeling deep respect for Germany the producer punched guarantee marks of the country winner?
I know that in Poland under the power of Russia, and Holland under the power of France so did..., Etc.

About the "ЛЮТ" mark:
In the USSR there was a holding which was engaged at the state level in production and sale of jeweler production. It is SoyuzYuvelirProm (СоюзЮвелирПром) ( Jeweller Industry of the Union). This holding included factories of production and shops of sale. The division in Leningrad was called LenYuvelirProm (ЛенЮвелирПром).
"... The part of the Leningrad division there was the "Leningrad Jeweller and Hour factory" (Ленинградская ювелирно-часовая фабрика), largest in the USSR, in Gostiny Dvor. The factory didn't receive from the state of precious metals and processed products and metal, are received at the population. Still products of the best pre-revolutionary Petersburg firms, including Fabergé, meet a mark of "ЛЮT" (ЛенЮвелирТорг). In the West countries it mistakenly call a brand of Leingrad Jeweller association (Ленинградское Ювелирное Товарищество). The basis of factory in Gostiny dvor was made by workshops of the supplier of the Highest Yard - "Ivan Ekimovich Morozov" firm. The firm had in Gostiny Dvor three trade rooms . In 1965 at repair of overlappings in the former Morozov shop 6 "bricks" of gold with a gross weight of 114 kg were found . This find did a lot of noise in Leningrad. Activity of Jeweller and hour factory was suspended in 1941 (The Gostiny Dvor burned all winter of 1941-1942), but revived in 1944, right after a lifting the siege...." ( http://skurlov.blogspot.ru/2010/05/80.html ) Sorry for "free translation" ))

I believe ЛЮТ - early mark of the Leningrad Jeweller and Hour factory. Before ЛЮ1, 2, 3., etc.

These forks arrived on factory after WW2. Here they were checked, updated (Р) and sent to the shop after remarking.

Best Reg..
Dad
contributor
Posts: 739
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by Dad »

Excuse me for my mistake. Instead of SoyuzYuvelirpProm -SoyuzYuvelirtTorg. Instead of LenYuvelirProm - LenYuvelirtTorg.
The Торг - Торговля (Trade,Retail).

Here it is correct:


About the "ЛЮТ" mark:
In the USSR there was a holding which was engaged at the state level in production and sale of jeweler production. It is SoyuzYuvelirTorg (СоюзЮвелирТорг) ( Jeweller Trade of the Union). This holding included factories of production and shops of sale. The division in Leningrad was called LenYuvelirTorg (ЛенЮвелирТорг ЛЮТ).
"... The part of the Leningrad division there was the "Leningrad Jeweller and Hour factory" (Ленинградская ювелирно-часовая фабрика), largest in the USSR, in Gostiny Dvor. The factory didn't receive from the state of precious metals and processed products and metal, are received at the population. Still products of the best pre-revolutionary Petersburg firms, including Fabergé, meet a mark of "ЛЮT" (ЛенЮвелирТорг). In the West countries it mistakenly call a brand of Leingrad Jeweller association (Ленинградское Ювелирное Товарищество). The basis of factory in Gostiny dvor was made by workshops of the supplier of the Highest Yard - "Ivan Ekimovich Morozov" firm. The firm had in Gostiny Dvor three trade rooms . In 1965 at repair of overlappings in the former Morozov shop 6 "bricks" of gold with a gross weight of 114 kg were found . This find did a lot of noise in Leningrad. Activity of Jeweller and hour factory was suspended in 1941 (The Gostiny Dvor burned all winter of 1941-1942), but revived in 1944, right after a lifting the siege...." ( http://skurlov.blogspot.ru/2010/05/80.html ) Sorry for "free translation" ))

I believe ЛЮТ - early mark of the Leningrad Jeweller and Hour factory. Before ЛЮ1, 2, 3., etc.

These forks arrived on factory after WW2. Here they were checked, updated (Р) and sent to the shop after remarking.
Qrt.S
contributor
Posts: 3801
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2009 9:32 am
Location: Helsinki Finland

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by Qrt.S »

Dad wrote: In the West countries it mistakenly call a brand of Leingrad Jeweller association (Ленинградское Ювелирное Товарищество).
Mind my saying but take a look at page 609 #18849 in Troepolskaja (printed in Russia)and you will find this name mentioned. There is not a single word of any "ЛенЮвелирТорг". What is the truth?
Dad
contributor
Posts: 739
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:52 pm
Location: St. Petersburg

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by Dad »

Hi, Qrt.S

It was the quote from Skurlov's article (according to the link). He works much with archival materials. I understand, difficultly to read this article. I am sorry.
He writes that SoyuzYuvelirTorg (and LenYuvelirTorg) was formed in 1936.

For example two punches. In the top part of punch "Лен.Юв.ф-ка" - reduction from "Ленинградская Ювелирная Фабрика" (Leningrad Jeweller Factory)^

Image
oel
co-admin
Posts: 4769
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: Rotterdam
Contact:

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by oel »

Hi,

In Germany it is a requirement of every registered manufacturer/producer/retailer of precious metal items, to stamp the item with a fineness mark, and their registered responsibility mark being maker/producer or retailer’s mark, and the obligatory National Mark for silver the crescent moon and crown. This manufacturer or retailer applied mark(s) personally guarantees the silver item to be a minimum standard of 800 fineness.

I agree with Dad’s plausible explanation; made in occupied France during the 2nd World War. The set could have been made by the house of Puiforcat and at special request by a member of the occupying German forces in France, who had it send to Germany. At a later stage the forks were confiscated/stolen by the Soviet armed forces in Germany (Berlin) and send to the USSR.


Oel.
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 58995
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by dognose »

Then presumably Puiforcat were registered in Germany?

Trev.
JayT
contributor
Posts: 925
Joined: Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by JayT »

Hmmm...What I read In Oel's response is that a German retailer marked a Puiforcat product that somehow had been imported to Germany. This seems plausible. I don't believe Puiforcat ever registered in Germany, but would be interested in learning the contrary.

The house of Puiforcat stayed open during WWII with a very diminished workforce. By war's end the family had sold controlling interest in the firm. Their lead designer at the beginning of the occupation, Jean Puiforcat, had fled the fascist regime, first to Spain, then Portugal, on to Cuba where his wife was from, finally settling in Mexico where he stayed until 1945. I don't think the company was very collaborative with the German occupying forces.
oel
co-admin
Posts: 4769
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:16 pm
Location: Rotterdam
Contact:

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by oel »

Hi JayT,

Let us speculate a little more.
The 6 forks clearly show the mark of the house of Puiforcat and the German obligatory National Mark for silver. The 6 forks might have been part of a large silver canteen cutlery set and incompletely marked compared to the missing (larger) pieces.
The house of Puiforcat stayed open for business during the German occupation of France with a reduced workforce and perhaps new management loyal to the German occupying forces. The Puiforcat family might have sold their interest in the company to people who were loyal to the occupying German authorities in France.
Paris was a favorite city for German soldiers to be. See Collaboration, Daily life in occupied France and Nightlife in Paris:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_mil ... rld_War_II

During periods of turmoil, when normal business becomes difficult, people get creative. Puiforcat might have registered his mark with the German authorities in Paris and/or had (no)permission or secret permission to apply the German National Mark on silver leaving Paris for export to Germany. Records of prove might have been lost/destroyed deliberately after the war or some day show up. Who knows?

Best,

Oel.
silverfan
contributor
Posts: 686
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2005 4:29 pm
Location: munich

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by silverfan »

Hi dognose,.
Since 1888 (law of 1884) in Germany never existed a public authority of control (before there were the assay masters of the towns). In Germany there is no legal obligation to mark precious metals, but in case of marking (everybody can do that even private persons) it must happen following the law, that means with purity and producer or seller. § 3 of the "Stempelgesetz" (law) no longer requires halfmoon and crown, but the silver factories mark so traditionally. These very liberal regulations make it difficult to answer the many questions in the above discussion.
Since you asked me, I tried to find out when the necessity to mark with halfmoon and crown was abolished, but up to now I didn' get a reliable answer. As soon as I have an information I will tell it here in the forum.
Regards silverfan
dognose
Site Admin
Posts: 58995
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:53 pm
Location: England

Re: forks-French/Germany/Russia

Post by dognose »

Hi Silverfan,

Thank your for your researches, it is very much appreciated.

Trev.
Post Reply

Return to “Russian Silver”