need help with the mark

MARK IMAGE REQUIRED
tjuliuxue
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Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:20 am

need help with the mark

Postby tjuliuxue » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:29 am

I just start to collect silver spoons and find one today in the local market in Netherlands.

anyone can help me wit the marks?

thanks

Image

oel
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Location: The Netherlands

Re: need help with the mark

Postby oel » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:52 am

Hi, welcome to the forum. Yes, it appears to be a logo/retailers mark (German?), A M (with two small triangles) being the maker's mark of Fa.(Firm) Arie Mesker & Zoon (Son), registered in Schoonhoven and this particular mark used 1941/1976. Made in Holland
This spoon never has seen an official assay office, the silver standard or fineness is indicated by the oval mark 835 or 835/100 silver fineness or 83.5% pure silver. Made for export. Could you show us an image of the complete spoon?
For Dutch (hall)marks see:
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=32028

Best,

Peter.

Dendriet
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Re: need help with the mark

Postby Dendriet » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:21 pm

.

oel wrote:This spoon never has seen an official assay office, the silver standard or fineness is indicated by the oval mark 835 or 835/100 silver fineness or 83.5% pure silver.Peter.
\

Really, he has seen the assay office in Belgium.:)))
Continue to explore this as soon as I am home

oel
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Re: need help with the mark

Postby oel » Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:44 pm

The barrel shaped mark could indeed be a Belgian registered retailers mark. The oval fineness mark could be a Belgian legally regulated unofficial standard mark struck by the Belgian retailer, not by an official Belgian assay office. At the moment no access to my Belgian reference books


Source: L. B. Gans Goud-en Zilvermerken van Voet.

Peter.

tjuliuxue
Posts: 2
Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:20 am

Re: need help with the mark

Postby tjuliuxue » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:21 pm

Thank you for the information, very precise and helpful.

Image

Dendriet
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Re: need help with the mark

Postby Dendriet » Sat Oct 13, 2018 3:42 pm

.

Walter van Dievoet
“General index of Belgian goldsmiths, silversmiths and Hallmarks” III - 1942 – 1997.

He has been approved bij the master of the mint, and stamped into a copper plate. This mark is barrel shaped and carries the identifying symbol
Image

He do’nt use the official mark of the fineness mark, who gives the degree (A) of fineness or purity of the precious metal.

And yes, there was no assay office involved

Dendriet
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:38 am

Re: need help with the mark

Postby Dendriet » Mon Oct 29, 2018 9:42 am

.

Some explanation why I was surprised by it.

The same rules apply in France and in Belgium
In France / Belgium, retailers are not allowed to use a lozenge shaped / a barrel shaped, that is only reserved for a silversmith.
Instead, the retailers use a square or something else.

When someone does this and also with a non-official mark of the fineness mark, he can be removed in the registration for life

oel
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Re: need help with the mark

Postby oel » Mon Oct 29, 2018 2:46 pm

Dendriet wrote:.

Some explanation why I was surprised by it.

The same rules apply in France and in Belgium
In France / Belgium, retailers are not allowed to use a lozenge shaped / a barrel shaped, that is only reserved for a silversmith.
Instead, the retailers use a square or something else.

When someone does this and also with a non-official mark of the fineness mark, he can be removed in the registration for life


Hi Dendriet,
Image

The spoon, made in Holland, with Dutch maker's mark has no Dutch hallmarks. To be sold in Belgium, in order to comply with the Belgian law, a registered Belgian responsibility mark (retailers mark) and unofficial fineness mark must me applied.

The Kingdom of Belgium
According to my source in accordance with the Order in Court of November 28th 1939, effective on January 1st 1942, voluntary hallmarking remains in existence, but makers may no longer use precious metal contents below 500/1000.
The standard of fineness of precious metal objects must henceforth be guaranteed. Either by the makers, importers and retailers using their personal responsibility mark a mark registered bij the Royal Belgian Mint, or by a mark of the only remaining assay office in the Royal Brussels Mint, or by foreign hallmarks.

Royal Belgian Mint
Registered responsibility mark of maker, importer and retailer are in a barrel shaped shield.
Source Goud en Zilverwerken van Voet Koninkrijk Belgie page 205 and Netherlands' Responsibility marks Part I, page 88.


I do not have Walter van Dievoet volume III of the General Index

Could you reveal your source?

Peter.

Dendriet
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Re: need help with the mark

Postby Dendriet » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:44 am

oel wrote:
Hi Dendriet,
Image

The spoon, made in Holland, with Dutch maker's mark has no Dutch hallmarks. To be sold in Belgium, in order to comply with the Belgian law, a registered Belgian responsibility mark (retailers mark) and unofficial fineness mark must me applied.

The Kingdom of Belgium
According to my source in accordance with the Order in Court of November 28th 1939, effective on January 1st 1942, voluntary hallmarking remains in existence, but makers may no longer use precious metal contents below 500/1000.
The standard of fineness of precious metal objects must henceforth be guaranteed. Either by the makers, importers and retailers using their personal responsibility mark a mark registered bij the Royal Belgian Mint, or by a mark of the only remaining assay office in the Royal Brussels Mint, or by foreign hallmarks.

Royal Belgian Mint
Registered responsibility mark of maker, importer and retailer are in a barrel shaped shield.
Source Goud en Zilverwerken van Voet Koninkrijk Belgie page 205 and Netherlands' Responsibility marks Part I, page 88.


I do not have Walter van Dievoet volume III of the General Index

Could you reveal your source?

Peter.


One note has been accepted by me: Voluntary hallmarking

oel wrote:Royal Belgian Mint
Registered responsibility mark or maker, importer and retailer are in a barrel shaped shield.
[i] Source Gold and Silver Works of Voet Koninkrijk Belgium page 205
Peter.


The makers, importers and retailers using their responsibility mark registered at the Royal Belgian Mint (red shaded)

In the book of the Waarborgfonfs and WalterDievoet, only silversmiths are mentioned in all their legal title.

Image

Could you reveal your source from the book by Voet?

Then I will show them by Walter Dievoet

oel
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Re: need help with the mark

Postby oel » Mon Nov 05, 2018 10:38 am

Goud en zilvermerken van Voet L.B. Gans and Premsela & Hamburger page 204 & 205 partly translated in English; Kingdom of Belgium (1830-present)

Kingdom of Belgium (1830-present)
Voluntary official assay (Royal Decree 28 November 1939) 1942-present

From 1942, Belgium recognizes three systems of guarantee of gold and silver work (standards); the optional assay marking by the (Belgian) Assay office, marking according to the legal rules by manufacturers, importers and traders, and the foreign marks applied by a competent authority. A punch-mark of the maker's mark has to be deposited again at the Royal Mint of Belgium.

ɪ The marks for the optional guarantee by the Assay office for works that meet the legal standards.


Image

Kingdom of Belgium (1830-present)

ɪɪ Legal regulated unofficial marks punched by manufacturers, importers and traders

ɪ Stamp signature (personal mark) in barrel-shaped shield. A punch-mark of this mark must be deposited at the Royal Mint of Belgium

Image

NB. In the list only a barrel shaped shield is shown being a personal mark/responsibility mark.

Peter.

Dendriet
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Posts: 439
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 10:38 am

Re: need help with the mark

Postby Dendriet » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:59 pm

Peter,

A somewhat late reaction, since I now have a virus infection.
I have listed the most necessary information here
There is much more to do with this, but think that this is sufficient.
You will have a test project next week.:)))

Image
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oel
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Posts: 3430
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Location: The Netherlands

Re: need help with the mark

Postby oel » Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:59 am

Hi Dendriet, first of all I wish you a speedy recovery and get well soon.

It appears Voet is correct; registered responsibility mark of maker, importer and retailer are in a barrel shaped shield.

Best,

Peter


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