wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
trevorg
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Location: France

wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby trevorg » Thu May 24, 2012 11:53 am

Hello,
I recently aquired this spoon and have been trying to identify the origins. The spoon is 185mm long overall, the finial (Virgin Mary?) is 50 mm long and the bowl is 60mm long by 50mm wide. The stem of the spoon is hollow and there is a blow hole just under the finial at the rear.The back of the bowl is engraved with a flower and has the initial K and C (possibly later engraving). There are two hallmarks on the back of the bowl, the first mark I believe is for Leipzig but am not sure, the secong mark appears to be the number 13. I have found on other posts that this could be a tax mark? Can anyone help me put some history to the spoon. I originally though it could be Swiss due to the position of the blow hole but can find no Swiss mark that is similar. The person I bought it from thought it was Austrian early 18th C.

Thank you.
http://tinypic.com/r/wkra8n/6
http://tinypic.com/r/2cygvnc/6
http://tinypic.com/r/2s61wtk/6
http://tinypic.com/r/8yceu9/6
http://tinypic.com/r/2vdjn04/6
http://tinypic.com/r/el338o/6
http://tinypic.com/r/16114qu/6

goldresearch
Posts: 23
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2012 2:26 pm
Location: Austria

Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby goldresearch » Tue May 29, 2012 8:34 am

Hallo trevorg,

during the Austrian-Hungarian Monarchy there were used three city marks which are similar to the hallmark.
Such a "double cross" was used in Leutschau, now Levoca (Slovakia), end 16th century to about 1860, in Altsohl, now Zolyan (Slovakia), 1620 to 1666, and in Debreczen (Hungaria), second half 18th cetury to about 1805. Can you identify the sign on the right side of the double cross, please? Is it the digit "3"?

goldresearch

trevorg
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Location: France

Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby trevorg » Wed May 30, 2012 10:07 am

Hello goldresearch,
Thank you for responding. Sadly I am unable to identify the mark to the side of the double cross. I have enlarged the picture and hopefully this may assist you. I have also enlarged the other mark, which is definately the digit number 3, in quite a florid script but which does not really match what I assume to be the quite plain digit number 1 alongside it, to make number 13.
Look forward to your advice.
Regards,
Trevor
http://tinypic.com/r/xnr9kj/6
http://tinypic.com/r/w1v1br/6

AG2012
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Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby AG2012 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 4:54 pm

Apostle spoon - very collectable and very expensive.
Something is wrong here;faceted handles and fig-shaped bowls were generally made from one piece of silver.
There is clear soldering between the handle and the bowl.
Reconsider the price paid for this spoon and compare with prices elsewhere;sellers are not naive.

trevorg
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Posts: 84
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2011 9:33 am
Location: France

Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby trevorg » Tue Jun 05, 2012 4:52 am

Hello AG2012,
Thank you for your response. I will admit that this was my initial concern also when I first looked at the spoon but I could not see how a hollow faceted handle (complete with blow hole)and a solid bowl could be manufactured in one piece and so, in my mind, the fact that these were clearly seperate items that were joined did not seem unusual. Had the handle been solid, and the bowl soldered to it, then I would probably have had concerns. Perhaps I was naive and wrong but I still like the spoon. The bowl is clearly marked (although by whom, where and when still remains a mystery),do you think that the bowl and handle are disparate items that have been joined together to deceive?
Regards,
Trevor

trevorg
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Posts: 84
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Location: France

Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby trevorg » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:25 am

In response to goldresearch I have looked closely at the mark and believe it is crossed swords. Having just received my copy of Tardy I am moving towards Kesmark (Austria-Hungary) as a possibility for the city mark, and particularly the mark between the points is not disimilar to that in the early 19th century mark. The 13 Loth fineness mark also looks right. What still looks wrong is that the crossed swords mark does not have the 13 struck within it. Is it likely that this would have been struck seperately?

Theoderich
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Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby Theoderich » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:14 pm

The hallmarls looks like pseudomarks.
I think it is historism - but I am not sure.

huszas76
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Location: Hungary, Budapest

Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby huszas76 » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:59 am

Hello!
I agree with trevorg, these are crossed swords, but i don't think, it's Késmárk. Késmárk was one of the free city of the king. That's the reason, that a crown is always above the swords in the hallmark of Késmárk. And in the photo - this is not a crown.

http://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmer ... %C3%ADmere

Regards!
huszas76

trevorg
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Location: France

Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby trevorg » Sat Jun 16, 2012 10:38 am

Hello huszas76,

I have attached the mark for Kesmark from Tardy that I was referring to, it is the one on the right. I thought the mark between the sword points was not dissimilar to those on the spoon but there is no sign of a 13 being stamped.

Trevor

http://tinypic.com/r/5fert2/6

Theoderich
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Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby Theoderich » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:11 pm

Image
a 19.th Century Hallmark of Kesmark from Johannes Gemza

Theoderich
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Re: wedding or baptism spoon- town mark and maker?

Postby Theoderich » Sat Jun 16, 2012 1:15 pm

huszas76 wrote:Hello!
I agree with trevorg, these are crossed swords, but i don't think, it's Késmárk. Késmárk was one of the free city of the king. That's the reason, that a crown is always above the swords in the hallmark of Késmárk. And in the photo - this is not a crown.

http://hu.wikibooks.org/wiki/C%C3%ADmer ... %C3%ADmere" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Regards!
huszas76


hallo huszas,

if You turn the hallmark upside down, it is the correct position of the crown.


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