Japanese dragon versus Chinese dragon

[oel]

Japanese dragon versus Chinese dragon

Hi David,

Talking dragons, may I ask you; are there noticeable differences between the number of claws possessed by a Japanese dragon and the number of claws possessed by a Chinese dragon?
I have read that if the dragon has more than three claws its Chinese; some authors differentiate Japanese ryū and Chinese long dragons by the number of claws on their feet. "In Japan," writes Gould (1896:248), "it is invariably figured as possessing three claws, whereas in China it has four or five, according as it is an ordinary or an Imperial emblem."
The two Chinese dragons, on my two pieces of Chinese export silver, one shows 3 claws but the other one has four claws. Am I right if I say; three claws could be Japanese or a Chinese made dragon but more than three claws the dragon is Chinese or better made by a Chinese master?



Three claws retailer Zee Sung Shanghai circa 1910. See;
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 13&t=32112



Four claws retailer Hung Chong Shanghai circa 1890. See;
http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 13&t=29690


Never realized I might have read the Dragon Claw story on our own forum as kindly mentioned by you with link; http://www.925-1000.com/forum/viewtopic ... 13&t=28763

Thanks for the great information.

Regards,

Oel

[davidross]

Hi Oel,

Thanks for reposting these fine photos.

It is difficult to say, looking at the photos of the cocktail shaker, if there isn't a fourth claw hidden behind the body or leg of the dragon. If I squint, I can swear I see the tip of a fourth claw peeking out.

The distinction Gould made in 1896 between Japanese three-clawed dragons and Chinese four- and five-clawed dragons probably had its greatest relevance at the time he was writing, shortly after the conclusion of the First Sino-Japanese War, when the Qing Dynasty was waning.

I only have a layman's understanding of these distinctions about dragons, and frankly I know of no rule that holds true for every period and in all cases. I should also qualify my opinion by stating that I am coming from a Japanese perspective in which all dragons (and all codifications of dragon iconography) are tacitly understood to be Chinese in origin, just as an English or Dutch artist who paints a satyr or nymph is, consciously or not is referring to Greco-Roman mythology. The problems are at least twofold. First, Chinese dragons were depicted differently over time, yet newer styles of depiction did not necessarily completely replace older ones. Second, Japanese access to Chinese civilization was at times quite free and at other times quite restricted, so the Japanese in any given period may not have had great awareness of how dragon iconography was changing in China.

Ceramics and textiles, rather than silver, give a most complete (and confusing) picture of how Chinese and Japanese portrayed dragons over the centuries. Export silver appears on the scene rather late.

I do think that the rule of five-clawed dragons for the Chinese emperor versus four for all other Chinese had its most rigid application during the first two centuries of the Qing Dynasty (roughly speaking, 1650-1850). The implication is that non-Chinese deserved only three-clawed dragons. Clearly, this notion would find more favour in China than in Japan. I should stress that this is only an impression and someone else may supply a more satisfactory answer.

So in brief, yes, the 5 and 4 = Chinese, 3 = Japanese rule seems to be true for most CES and JES of the late 19th century, but much less so after the demise of the Qing Dynasty (1911). As with any rule, of course, there may be exceptions.

[oel]

Hi David,

Thank you very much for your thorough and clear explanation. I checked my cocktail shaker for a fourth claw; filled & shaken but not stirred, it only showed three claws, after I finished its content it appeared a fourth claw could be present and knocked me out.

Cheers,

Oel.

[davidross]

Hi Oel,

I'll take your word for it that there are only three claws and not four. In this case, a three-clawed Chinese dragon would suggest to me either that the shaker was destined to be placed in non-Chinese hands or more likely, a post-1900 or even 1910 production (after the end of the Qing Dynasty, but not much later).

You are right, of course, the number of claws may depend on the strength of the spirits therein. Three claws could easily become six after a few rounds.....

Cheers, indeed!

DR