pepperpots - look middle eastern

PHOTOS REQUIRED - marks + item
populous38
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pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby populous38 » Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:41 am

Dear all
I have two little pepper pots; I wonder if anyone can identify the marks for me and ? are they silver;
Appreciated as always
Gary
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silverfan
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby silverfan » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:39 am

The mark on the right are the arabic figures for 84, a russian silver fineness mark for 875/1000 also used in Persia, but attention there are some experts here who say that it is not sure but it is possible that it is only low content silver.
Regards silverfan

dragonflywink
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby dragonflywink » Sun Apr 14, 2019 2:33 pm

I continue to be troubled by the assertion that the '84' (as expressed in either European or Arabic numerals) on Iranian/Persian silver indicates a fineness of .875 based on the zolotnik system - am hoping the matter might be cleared up. My understanding is that while the European-style '84' marks may have been based on Russian marks, it actually indicates a fineness of .840, and when the Iranian 'armed lion' mark was introduced in 1967, the minimum standards indicated were .840 and .900 - have also seen a number of Iranian pieces, with maker's marks, stamped '84%' over the years...

~Cheryl

AG2012
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby AG2012 » Sun Apr 14, 2019 6:05 pm

Cheryl is right. Persian 84 related to Russian Zolotniki is a myth.The standard was probably used in northern part of iran during Russian - British division of the country for a short time, but that ended 100 years ago.Later production in .840 fineness is marked as such, e.g. "Made in Iran, 84% MARTIN " Pay attention to percentage.Anyway, it would be interesting to test 84 items (electronically).
Regards

dragonflywink
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby dragonflywink » Sun Apr 14, 2019 8:52 pm

Might add that while it's a less common fineness, Iranian .900 silver is also usually marked as '90', though not often in European-style numbers. The '84%' mark shown below is from Rezazadeh's 'Collectible Silver Jewelry' (2001), the maker's mark described as belonging to the 'Ardokhanian' family, silversmiths dating back to the 19th century, with a workshop in Tehran since at least the 1930s.

~Cheryl

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amena
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby amena » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:11 am

Very interesting! It therefore appears that the matter of the 84 zolotniki in Persia is an urban legend.
As AG2012 says,it would be interesting to test 84 items.
If anyone does, I hope he wants to share the test result here.
Regads
Amena

AG2012
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby AG2012 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:32 am

Hi,
Lion with sabre with single line around was used 1967-1979 for silver purity .840, double line around lion for .900.
This is the mark of Barakoosh workshops in Isfahan during the reign of the last Shah.
Regards
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populous38
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby populous38 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:25 pm

Thanks for all the comment everyone; Can I take it then, that they are at least Silver. Gary

AG2012
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby AG2012 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:16 pm

Hi,
Yes, they are solid silver. There are many silver standards (fineness) of silver alloys.
See here:
https://www.925-1000.com/a_Standards.html

Contrary to solid silver, silver plated items are made of non-precious base metal and covered with microscopically thin layer of silver, but that`s another story.
In a word, your salt, pepper shakers ARE silver.
Regards

populous38
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby populous38 » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:02 pm

Appreciated as always.
Really interesting to read all the comments.
Just love to learn the origin of items.
Gary

silverfan
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby silverfan » Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:57 am

I tested my vase posted under "Silver from Iran?" (in Middle East) electronically and the result was: at the side 88,7% and on the bottom 86,9% silver.
Regards silverfan

AG2012
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Re: pepperpots - look middle eastern

Postby AG2012 » Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:17 am

Hi,
No way they used different alloy on the same piece.Even industrial, serious X ray fluorescence is complicated and calculation of the average relative uncertainty is sometimes 2.5 %. Commercially offered analysers never offer margin of error data.
At least good to know it`s solid silver close to .900.
Regards


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